[Date Prev][Date Next][Thread Prev][Thread Next][Date Index][Thread Index]

GSBN: Digest for 1/9/03



This message contains a digest of the messages posted to the list today. If
you reply to this message, please be sure to change the subject line to
something meaningful. Also, be careful not to include the entire text of this
message in your reply.



---------------------------------------------------------------------


-> Re: GSBN:Jeff Ruppert and clay tests
     by Derek Roff derek@...
-> netting, fibers, geotextiles, etc.
     by Athena & Bill Steen absteen@...
-> Re:COIR net
     by bainbridge bainbrid@...
-> Re: GSBN:netting, fibers, geotextiles, etc.
     by Bruce King ecobruce@...
-> Re: GSBN:netting, fibers, geotextiles, etc.
     by Athena & Bill Steen absteen@...


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 9 Jan 2003 16:00:21 -0600
From: Derek Roff derek@...
Subject: Re: GSBN:Jeff Ruppert and clay tests

- --On Wednesday, January 8, 2003 9:08 PM -0700 Athena & Bill Steen 
absteen@... wrote:

> One concern I have always had about this particular combination is
> wondering how efficient it would be in not letting liquid moisture
> pass through to the straw.  Clay obviously likes to hold onto it
> and not let it go, cements, limes by themselves appear ready to
> give it up at a moment's notice.

As Harry mentioned, when sufficient lime is mixed with clay, we get 
hydraulic limes.  These are lime compounds that will set up under 
water and are highly water resistant.  My guess is that these 
lime-clay mixtures would show less of the three virtues of clay 
plasters which don't contain lime.  I think they will be less vapor 
permeable, will be able to absorb/store/moderate less moisture in 
time of need, and will transfer moisture to straw more readily, as 
Bill speculates above.

So, while lime-clay mixtures may have great virtues for lining 
canals, and many other applications, they may not be a step forward 
for plastering strawbale structures.  We would need to test their 
moisture-related qualities before we can make a reliable judgement.

Derek Roff
Language Learning Center, Ortega Hall Rm 129, University of New Mexico
Albuquerque, NM 87131  505/277-7368, fax 505/277-3885
Internet: derek@...


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 9 Jan 2003 18:11:25 -0600
From: Athena & Bill Steen absteen@...
Subject: netting, fibers, geotextiles, etc.


I've been thinking about this one for a few days and I think the best 
place to start may be back with Bruce's first post.  The objection to 
the coir netting was, if I remember correctly, was that the 
spaces/openings were too small and interfered with the volume of straw 
in the mix.  Before talking about that, in my opinion and through 
comments from Japanese friends, my opinion is that when it comes to 
choosing a fiber, the coir will be the longest lasting and superior 
when it comes to strength.  So if at all possible I would explore every 
avenue possible to use it, unless another version was discovered that 
had bigger openings.  How to use it?  One option would be to go for a 
mix with less fiber, perhaps a lime/clay along the lines suggested by 
Harry.  Another would be to place it between layers of plaster.  I know 
the thought of applying one layer of plaster and then rolling out the 
netting so that it is embedded in the mix before the next layer goes on 
isn't all that attractive, but it is not impossible.  Samples we've 
made in the past show them to be remarkably strong when it comes to 
shear (homestyle testing).

One more option, I'm sure the engineers will love this one, is to use 
tensioned rope (right strength and type whatever that is) run all over 
the place, foundation to the roof plate, around the corners, everywhere 
imaginable.  Before you laugh, my thoughts stem from traditional 
Japanese buildings that used to do very much the same thing by 
embedding rope/twine in the earth plasters.  It was used in the ways 
that I am suggesting above and made quite a stout building out of their 
wattle/daub post and beam frames.

Thinking on, if you haven't dismissed me by now, I think a super 
critical component in making sb and earth plastered buildings resist 
lateral loads is that of compressed or pre-compressed walls (depending 
on whether or not it is lb).  I'm talking both lb and non lb designs.  
If non lb, I think that making sure the frame and the walls are tightly 
integrated is also equally important.  Given, I haven't gone through an 
earthquake and can only speculate what it must be like, but I would 
suspect that buildings constructed this way would resist a pretty good 
shake even if they weren't plastered.  The image still sticks in my 
mind of my 11 and 12 year olds who were messing around in our old 
International pickup late one afternoon when everyone from a workshop 
had gone indoors. I had left it next to a small building that had just 
been put up with the keys in it.  They managed to fire it up and due to 
short legs (or so they say) lost control of the clutch as they were 
releasing it and proceeded straight on into one of the walls.  Granted 
they weren't going 60 miles an hour, but we had difficulty discerning 
the slightest amount of movement.

And I think that's enough to think about for today.

Bill

Marcus and other concerned fiber conscious individuals,

On Thursday, January 9, 2003, at 03:59 PM, Marcus Hardwick wrote:

>
>
> Charmaine wrote:
>>
>> Marcus said: It seems like woven geotextile fabric products could be 
>> used as plastic mesh "lath" for clay rendered walls in high seismic 
>> areas. While I'd rather seesomething in a natural fiber develop and 
>> be tested - the geotextiles alreadyhave known engineering properties 
>> and are commonly used for rugged applicationslike road base 
>> stabilization.
>>
>> ++++++++++
>>
>> There are natural fiber weaves, made of Coir, a coconut fiber woven 
>> into rope, then into a lattice weave of rolls 90' long, used for 
>> landscaping ground/river bank erosion.
>>
>> I bought a roll and used it to plaster onto, getting it taut is a 
>> serious problem, so don't try it for that.  I sent some to Kiko 
>> Denzer and Ianto Evans to experiment with 2 years ago, no answer yet.
>
>
> ++++++
>
>
> Yeah, I hear you Charmaine. Thing is, it's not just for strengthening 
> the
> plaster it's own self. Straw or horse manure etc. can do that. For a 
> seismically
> engineered building in, say, San Francisco like Bruce was talking 
> about it's
> vitally important to provide a good strong and lasting connection 
> between the
> roof/upper bond beam and the foundation. This would seem to indicate a 
> strong
> material that is easy to get reasonably taut and is able to be firmly 
> attached
> top and bottom. As a step in that direction, I'm thinking along the 
> lines of a
> non-metalic replacement or substitution for the 2x2 inch welded wire 
> mesh
> currently used with stucco which is being attached to a box beam above 
> and
> toe-ups below with a pneumatic stapler (usually and wrapped around the 
> members).
> Since the steel mesh - even if galvanized - doesn't have a very long 
> life
> expectancy in the clay render due to rusting, what are some options?
>
> There could probably be a workable system developed using Coir or hemp 
> mesh and
> perhaps vertical bamboo pins. Maybe even woven bamboo strips but how 
> do you get
> that through plan check? Needs a lot of testing to develop numbers 
> (like EBN is
> doing for bales and renders) and that takes time and especially 
> funding. The
> geotextiles have an advantage in that much of the testing needed to 
> produce
> reliable numbers has already been done (on somebody else's nickel). 
> Disadvantage
> is they are petro based and somewhat expensive although when compared 
> to the
> price of real estate in, say, San Francisco - a pittance and a bargain 
> at twice
> the price (kinda like bales - but that's another rant).
>
> One other drawback is the possible danger of establishing a precedent 
> for using
> geotextiles in clay rendered SBC that might tend to preclude 
> exploration of bio
> based and locally produceable materials. My predilection though is to 
> somehow
> encourage the adoption of clay rendered SB buildings as a better 
> alternative to
> stick built/fibreglass insulated/ concrete stuccoed (or vinyl sided) 
> buildings
> that are common construction hereabouts. I would consider it to be 
> even better
> if this could be done with locally grown hemp and bamboo but if 
> something like
> certain geotextiles could substantially enable the widespread use of 
> clay or
> perhaps lime stabilized clay renders- that seems like a step in the 
> right
> direction. Like in that old Pete Seeger song: "Inch by inch, row by 
> row..."
>
> Marcus
> Overcast and drizzle in Sonoma County
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> SB-r-us-unsubscribe@...
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to 
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>
Athena & Bill Steen
The Canelo Project
HC1 Box 324
Canelo/Elgin, AZ 85611
absteen@...
www.caneloproject.com



******************* NOTE *******************
There may be important message content
contained in the following MIME Information.
********************************************


- ------------------ MIME Information follows ------------------


- --Apple-Mail-54--574831807
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset=US-ASCII;
	format=flowed

<<<<<< See above "Message Body" >>>>>>

- --Apple-Mail-54--574831807
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Type: text/enriched;
	charset=US-ASCII

I've been thinking about this one for a few days and I think the best
place to start may be back with Bruce's first post.  The objection to
the coir netting was, if I remember correctly, was that the
spaces/openings were too small and interfered with the volume of straw
in the mix.  Before talking about that, in my opinion and through
comments from Japanese friends, my opinion is that when it comes to
choosing a fiber, the coir will be the longest lasting and superior
when it comes to strength.  So if at all possible I would explore
every avenue possible to use it, unless another version was discovered
that had bigger openings.  How to use it?  One option would be to go
for a mix with less fiber, perhaps a lime/clay along the lines
suggested by Harry.  Another would be to place it between layers of
plaster.  I know the thought of applying one layer of plaster and then
rolling out the netting so that it is embedded in the mix before the
next layer goes on isn't all that attractive, but it is not
impossible.  Samples we've made in the past show them to be remarkably
strong when it comes to shear (homestyle testing).  


One more option, I'm sure the engineers will love this one, is to use
tensioned rope (right strength and type whatever that is) run all over
the place, foundation to the roof plate, around the corners,
everywhere imaginable.  Before you laugh, my thoughts stem from
traditional Japanese buildings that used to do very much the same
thing by embedding rope/twine in the earth plasters.  It was used in
the ways that I am suggesting above and made quite a stout building
out of their wattle/daub post and beam frames.


Thinking on, if you haven't dismissed me by now, I think a super
critical component in making sb and earth plastered buildings resist
lateral loads is that of compressed or pre-compressed walls (depending
on whether or not it is lb).  I'm talking both lb and non lb designs. 
If non lb, I think that making sure the frame and the walls are
tightly integrated is also equally important.  Given, I haven't gone
through an earthquake and can only speculate what it must be like, but
I would suspect that buildings constructed this way would resist a
pretty good shake even if they weren't plastered.  The image still
sticks in my mind of my 11 and 12 year olds who were messing around in
our old International pickup late one afternoon when everyone from a
workshop had gone indoors. I had left it next to a small building that
had just been put up with the keys in it.  They managed to fire it up
and due to short legs (or so they say) lost control of the clutch as
they were releasing it and proceeded straight on into one of the
walls.  Granted they weren't going 60 miles an hour, but we had
difficulty discerning the slightest amount of movement.


And I think that's enough to think about for today.


Bill

 

Marcus and other concerned fiber conscious individuals,


On Thursday, January 9, 2003, at 03:59 PM, Marcus Hardwick wrote:


<excerpt>


Charmaine wrote:

<excerpt>

Marcus said: It seems like woven geotextile fabric products could be
used as plastic mesh "lath" for clay rendered walls in high seismic
areas. While I'd rather seesomething in a natural fiber develop and be
tested - the geotextiles alreadyhave known engineering properties and
are commonly used for rugged applicationslike road base stabilization.


++++++++++


There are natural fiber weaves, made of Coir, a coconut fiber woven
into rope, then into a lattice weave of rolls 90' long, used for
landscaping ground/river bank erosion.


I bought a roll and used it to plaster onto, getting it taut is a
serious problem, so don't try it for that.  I sent some to Kiko Denzer
and Ianto Evans to experiment with 2 years ago, no answer yet.

</excerpt>


++++++



Yeah, I hear you Charmaine. Thing is, it's not just for strengthening
the

plaster it's own self. Straw or horse manure etc. can do that. For a
seismically

engineered building in, say, San Francisco like Bruce was talking
about it's

vitally important to provide a good strong and lasting connection
between the

roof/upper bond beam and the foundation. This would seem to indicate a
strong

material that is easy to get reasonably taut and is able to be firmly
attached

top and bottom. As a step in that direction, I'm thinking along the
lines of a

non-metalic replacement or substitution for the 2x2 inch welded wire
mesh

currently used with stucco which is being attached to a box beam above
and

toe-ups below with a pneumatic stapler (usually and wrapped around the
members).

Since the steel mesh - even if galvanized - doesn't have a very long
life

expectancy in the clay render due to rusting, what are some options? 


There could probably be a workable system developed using Coir or hemp
mesh and

perhaps vertical bamboo pins. Maybe even woven bamboo strips but how
do you get

that through plan check? Needs a lot of testing to develop numbers
(like EBN is

doing for bales and renders) and that takes time and especially
funding. The

geotextiles have an advantage in that much of the testing needed to
produce

reliable numbers has already been done (on somebody else's nickel).
Disadvantage

is they are petro based and somewhat expensive although when compared
to the

price of real estate in, say, San Francisco - a pittance and a bargain
at twice

the price (kinda like bales - but that's another rant). 


One other drawback is the possible danger of establishing a precedent
for using

geotextiles in clay rendered SBC that might tend to preclude
exploration of bio

based and locally produceable materials. My predilection though is to
somehow

encourage the adoption of clay rendered SB buildings as a better
alternative to

stick built/fibreglass insulated/ concrete stuccoed (or vinyl sided)
buildings

that are common construction hereabouts. I would consider it to be
even better

if this could be done with locally grown hemp and bamboo but if
something like

certain geotextiles could substantially enable the widespread use of
clay or

perhaps lime stabilized clay renders- that seems like a step in the
right

direction. Like in that old Pete Seeger song: "Inch by inch, row by
row..."


Marcus

Overcast and drizzle in Sonoma County


To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:

SB-r-us-unsubscribe@...




Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ 




</excerpt><fontfamily><param>Helvetica</param>Athena & Bill Steen

The Canelo Project

HC1 Box 324

Canelo/Elgin, AZ 85611

absteen@...

www.caneloproject.com</fontfamily>


- --Apple-Mail-54--574831807--



----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 9 Jan 2003 18:27:35 -0600
From: bainbridge bainbrid@...
Subject: Re:COIR net

As far as coir goes...

The more common use for coir in erosion control is a fairly tight 
weave -- but I am sure the manufacturers (in India generally) would 
be able to weave whatever we want.

Perhaps we could ask for a 2x2 mesh? Or see if one is already made.

D
- -- 
David Bainbridge
Environmental Studies Coordinator
CAS
Alliant International University
10455 Pomerado Road
San Diego, CA 92131

Fax (858) 635-4730
Ph (858) 635-4616
http://academic.alliant.edu/bainbridge/
http://www.sustainableenergy.org/resources/technologies/solar_passive.htm
http:SustainableSources.com

The future isn't something hidden in a corner. The future is 
something we build in the present. Paulo Freire


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 9 Jan 2003 20:09:27 -0600
From: Bruce King ecobruce@...
Subject: Re: GSBN:netting, fibers, geotextiles, etc.

on 1/9/03 4:01 PM, Athena & Bill Steen at absteen@...:


> One more option, I'm sure the engineers will love this one, is to use
> tensioned rope (right strength and type whatever that is) run all over the
> place . . .

 "Love" just isn't a strong enough word to describe the surge of emotion I
felt upon reading this suggestion, and imagining trying to get a building
permit using "a whole bunch of rope all over the place" to safeguard lives
in a major seismic event.  It's actually, of course, a perfectly good idea,
but how we would ever substantiate that by test, and then sell it to the
grim-faced building officials, is beyond me right now.


 Marcus Hardwick wrote:

>  . . . The geotextiles have an advantage in that much of the testing needed
to
> produce reliable numbers has already been done (on somebody else's nickel).

Yes, and we looked at that, but (needing to decide by today) are going with
a sturdy plastic fencing material that we tension tested ourselves - it's
just strong enough, and stretches a lot, which is good.

>  . . . a drawback is the possible danger of establishing a precedent for
> using geotextiles in clay rendered SBC that might tend to preclude
exploration
> of bio-based and locally produceable materials.

Yes, and we worried over that a bit, too, but it's not really a problem.
When we publish the report and then book, it will be clear that as long as
you have a mesh with (  ) minimum strength, you can make a seismically
resistant earth-plastered wall.  That leaves the onus, as it must, on the
builder to check his/her own material for the minimum strength required.

Many thanks to all of you for pitching in with comments and suggestions.  It
is surely on of the more fun and practical values of the Web to be in the
time-crushed middle of this test program and be able to receive so much
useful input from all over the world.

( Even if . . . (he says, lower lip beginning to tremble) . . . we received
not even the least tidbit of wisdom from Rob Tom, Il Stronzo di tutti
stronzi di nord, moose-hugger and straw-bale guru par excellance.  What was
it, arctic RT?  Where art thou in our hour of need?  )

Thanks again to y'all,

Bruce



----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 9 Jan 2003 20:28:44 -0600
From: Athena & Bill Steen absteen@...
Subject: Re: GSBN:netting, fibers, geotextiles, etc.


On Thursday, January 9, 2003, at 06:57 PM, Bruce King wrote:
> .  It's actually, of course, a perfectly good idea,
> but how we would ever substantiate that by test, and then sell it to 
> the
> grim-faced building officials, is beyond me right now.
>
> why that's for you to figure out, isn't it, eh Bruce????

B...



----------------------------------------------------------------------

End of Digest

To request a copy of the help file, reply to this message and put "help" in
the subject.