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GSBN: Digest for 3/4/03



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-> Re: : slab edge insulation
     by "Rob Tom" rw_tom@...
-> RE: GSBN:Re: : slab edge insulation
     by jfstraube@...
-> RE: GSBN:Re: : slab edge insulation
     by "Bob Bolles" Bob@...
-> RE: GSBN:Re: : slab edge insulation
     by jfstraube@...
-> RE: GSBN:Re: : slab edge insulation
     by john@...
-> RE: GSBN:Re: : slab edge insulation
     by john@...


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Date: 4 Mar 2003 10:17:01 -0600
From: "Rob Tom" rw_tom@...
Subject: Re: : slab edge insulation

David;

I've never used the perlite/cement mix of which you speak but I do wonder 
how well the material drains since it is presumably being used at/below 
grade where it is likely to suck up ground moisture quite readily (and hence 
compromise its value as insulation) due to the large percentage of void in 
the low-density material ?

(ie Expanded perlite is highly absorptive (2-90% by volume) and quite 
vapour-permeable (32 perms)...don't know what the properties are when 
combined with cement)


  --- * ---
Robert W. Tom
Kanata, Ontario, Canada
rw_tom@...

please visit:  http://www.theHungerSite.com daily




Date: 3 Mar 2003 13:07:55 -0600
From: bainbridge bainbrid@...

>foamed concrete insulation

>Perlite concrete can be made with a dry density of 20 lb/ft3(320
kg/m3) The lower the density, the higher the insulating value.


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Date: 4 Mar 2003 10:42:41 -0600
From: jfstraube@...
Subject: RE: GSBN:Re: : slab edge insulation

It will definitely suck up moisture, and so must be protected from
direct prolonged water contact.  If it is justbe used near the slab
edge, then no worries.  I would also think that one could cast in a
block of the stuff just like you would a layer of foam plastic or rigid
insulation -- this provides a break in the middle of the concrete along
the top 1 or 2 ft.

Finally, if you are using a concrete foundation, adding a couple inches
of foam or fiber insulation to the exteiror of the foundation is
likelyto be easier and high performance

John Straube
Dept of Civil Engineering and School of Architecture
University of Waterloo
Waterloo, Canada
http://www.civil.uwaterloo.ca/beg


- -----Original Message-----
From: GSBN [mailto:GSBN@...] On Behalf Of Rob Tom
Sent: March 4, 2003 10:55
To: GSBN@...
Cc: bainbrid@...
Subject: GSBN:Re: : slab edge insulation


David;

I've never used the perlite/cement mix of which you speak but I do
wonder 
how well the material drains since it is presumably being used at/below 
grade where it is likely to suck up ground moisture quite readily (and
hence 
compromise its value as insulation) due to the large percentage of void
in 
the low-density material ?

(ie Expanded perlite is highly absorptive (2-90% by volume) and quite 
vapour-permeable (32 perms)...don't know what the properties are when 
combined with cement)


  --- * ---
Robert W. Tom
Kanata, Ontario, Canada
rw_tom@...

please visit:  http://www.theHungerSite.com daily




Date: 3 Mar 2003 13:07:55 -0600
From: bainbridge bainbrid@...

>foamed concrete insulation

>Perlite concrete can be made with a dry density of 20 lb/ft3(320
kg/m3) The lower the density, the higher the insulating value.


_________________________________________________________________
MSN 8 helps eliminate e-mail viruses. Get 2 months FREE*.  
http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus

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----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 4 Mar 2003 11:31:46 -0600
From: "Bob Bolles" Bob@...
Subject: RE: GSBN:Re: : slab edge insulation

Hi John
You wrote"
<snip>
>"Finally, if you are using a concrete foundation, adding a couple inches
of foam or fiber insulation to the exteiror of the foundation is
likely to be easier and high performance"

Well, therein lies the problem
If you place the foam on the exterior, first there is the appearance issue,
as well as protecting it from damage.
Then, I have to ask if this would potentially provide a path, behind the
foam or through it, for termites, ants and other little critters?

I believe that insulation under the slab is probably appropriate for cold
climates, but I am working in sunny Southern California. How much insulation
should we use, if any, below the slab.

Regards
Bob

Bob Bolles
Sustainable Building Solutions
Bob@...
www.StrawBaleHouse.com
 "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary
safety deserve neither liberty nor safety"  Benjamin Franklin




----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 4 Mar 2003 15:56:38 -0600
From: jfstraube@...
Subject: RE: GSBN:Re: : slab edge insulation

I would not use any insul below slabs in sunny california, but would use
it on the stem wall.
Protection is easy -- you plaster bales? Well you can plaster the foam
too. The termites are a bigger issue, best solved IMHO with a peel and
stick over the concrete and down the face of the foam/Mineral fiber 2",
then plaster over.


- -----Original Message-----
From: GSBN [mailto:GSBN@...] On Behalf Of Bob Bolles
Sent: March 4, 2003 12:11
To: GSBN
Cc: bainbrid@...
Subject: RE: GSBN:Re: : slab edge insulation


Hi John
You wrote"
<snip>
>"Finally, if you are using a concrete foundation, adding a couple 
>inches
of foam or fiber insulation to the exteiror of the foundation is likely
to be easier and high performance"

Well, therein lies the problem
If you place the foam on the exterior, first there is the appearance
issue, as well as protecting it from damage. Then, I have to ask if this
would potentially provide a path, behind the foam or through it, for
termites, ants and other little critters?

I believe that insulation under the slab is probably appropriate for
cold climates, but I am working in sunny Southern California. How much
insulation should we use, if any, below the slab.

Regards
Bob

Bob Bolles
Sustainable Building Solutions
Bob@...
www.StrawBaleHouse.com
 "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary
safety deserve neither liberty nor safety"  Benjamin Franklin


- ----
For instructions on joining, leaving, or otherwise using the GSBN list,
send email to GSBN@...HELP in the SUBJECT line.

- ----




----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 4 Mar 2003 19:42:44 -0600
From: john@...
Subject: RE: GSBN:Re: : slab edge insulation

I agree with John Straube about not using slab insulation in SUNNY
California.  We have areas that have severe winters and deep frosts, but in
most areas we are designing for cooling loads more than heating.
Experience, as well as computer simulations, show about a 5F lowering of
ambient  temperatures for four or five summer months when slab insulation is
removed.  The corresponding increase in heating loads is usually minimal and
only significant for a couple of months.

John

- -----Original Message-----
From: GSBN [mailto:GSBN@...]On Behalf Of John Straube
Sent: Tuesday, March 04, 2003 1:35 PM
To: 'GSBN'
Cc: bainbrid@...
Subject: RE: GSBN:Re: : slab edge insulation


I would not use any insul below slabs in sunny california, but would use
it on the stem wall.
Protection is easy -- you plaster bales? Well you can plaster the foam
too. The termites are a bigger issue, best solved IMHO with a peel and
stick over the concrete and down the face of the foam/Mineral fiber 2",
then plaster over.


- -----Original Message-----
From: GSBN [mailto:GSBN@...] On Behalf Of Bob Bolles
Sent: March 4, 2003 12:11
To: GSBN
Cc: bainbrid@...
Subject: RE: GSBN:Re: : slab edge insulation


Hi John
You wrote"
<snip>
>"Finally, if you are using a concrete foundation, adding a couple
>inches
of foam or fiber insulation to the exteiror of the foundation is likely
to be easier and high performance"

Well, therein lies the problem
If you place the foam on the exterior, first there is the appearance
issue, as well as protecting it from damage. Then, I have to ask if this
would potentially provide a path, behind the foam or through it, for
termites, ants and other little critters?

I believe that insulation under the slab is probably appropriate for
cold climates, but I am working in sunny Southern California. How much
insulation should we use, if any, below the slab.

Regards
Bob

Bob Bolles
Sustainable Building Solutions
Bob@...
www.StrawBaleHouse.com
 "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary
safety deserve neither liberty nor safety"  Benjamin Franklin


- ----
For instructions on joining, leaving, or otherwise using the GSBN list,
send email to GSBN@...HELP in the SUBJECT line.

- ----


- ----
For instructions on joining, leaving, or otherwise using the GSBN list, send
email to GSBN@...HELP in the SUBJECT line.
- ----





----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 4 Mar 2003 19:47:41 -0600
From: john@...
Subject: RE: GSBN:Re: : slab edge insulation

We've not come up with an easy and satisfactory detail for slab edge
insulation the puts the foam on the outside, for the reasons Bob
mentions--the foam has to be protected, and a termite shield is needed to
keep the critters from entering the wall from behind the foam.  If the slab
and and perimeter foundation can be separated, we have run  foam under the
slab 3-4 feet into the interior, and  turned it up between the slab and the
perimeter to make a break there.  That's relatively easy to do, and allows
the exterior to be finished simply and directly.

John Swearingen

- -----Original Message-----
From: GSBN [mailto:GSBN@...]On Behalf Of Bob Bolles
Sent: Tuesday, March 04, 2003 9:11 AM
To: GSBN
Cc: bainbrid@...
Subject: RE: GSBN:Re: : slab edge insulation


Hi John
You wrote"
<snip>
>"Finally, if you are using a concrete foundation, adding a couple inches
of foam or fiber insulation to the exteiror of the foundation is
likely to be easier and high performance"

Well, therein lies the problem
If you place the foam on the exterior, first there is the appearance issue,
as well as protecting it from damage.
Then, I have to ask if this would potentially provide a path, behind the
foam or through it, for termites, ants and other little critters?

I believe that insulation under the slab is probably appropriate for cold
climates, but I am working in sunny Southern California. How much insulation
should we use, if any, below the slab.

Regards
Bob

Bob Bolles
Sustainable Building Solutions
Bob@...
www.StrawBaleHouse.com
 "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary
safety deserve neither liberty nor safety"  Benjamin Franklin


- ----
For instructions on joining, leaving, or otherwise using the GSBN list, send
email to GSBN@...HELP in the SUBJECT line.
- ----




----------------------------------------------------------------------

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