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GSBN: Digest for 3/11/03



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-> RE: GSBN:Re: : slab edge insulation
     by Rene Dalmeijer rened@...
-> termite shields
     by bainbridge bainbrid@...
-> Planning to be in the UK the end of May/early June
     by Strawnet@...


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Date: 11 Mar 2003 08:44:45 -0600
From: Rene Dalmeijer rened@...
Subject: RE: GSBN:Re: : slab edge insulation

I don't want to differ with any of you. What is a good detail for the slab 
edge? I personally have the impression that this is probably the most 
critical detail in a SB building and one that to my mind is still open for 
improvement. This is what I think it should be:

There should be some form of continuity of exterior insulation from 
foundation/slab up to SB. No thermal bridges as evident in the infra red 
Nehemiah Horror movies. To me the preferred method would be to place a form 
of hard insulation (like the blue/green/pink closed cell foam whatever 
make) vertically against the exterior of the foundation. I have seen a form 
of this type of insulation (50mm) with a thin (15mm) cached on cement layer 
on the exterior for mechanical protection. The panels are purposefully made 
for exterior perimeter insulation the vertical edges have a tongue and 
groove profile to avoid gaps. To me this seems ideal. But I still have a 
few questions.

1) How to attach these panels to the foundation/slab (including stem) 
before casting with wire anchors in the form boards, or afterwards with 
some kind of goop? I would prefer the first option.
2) How does the exterior stucco end on top of the insulation? I 
suggest  some of form joggled thin metal stucco stop attached to the top of 
the stem wall over some of the insulation (20-30mm) then drop 30mm and then 
move outwards to the exterior surface of the insulation panels form here it 
drops at an angle for about 5-10mm. The stucco sits on the lip created by 
the strip but not fully it also juts out a little bit about 15-20mm proud 
of the exterior surface of the perimeter insulation. Therefore the exterior 
lip should be stucco thickness minus 15-20mm deep.

I am sure there are other good alternatives to the above solution. The 
above is still strongly cement based and there are many who prefer to avoid 
the use of cement. There should also be a solution avoiding the dependence 
on cement.


At 05:35 AM 3/11/03, you wrote:
>I don't think I said don't use edge insulation for radiant slabs
>(whereas I might have said that for normal slabs), I said you could get
>away from sub slab insulation if you insulated the perimeter walls.  If
>you do a radiant slab, even 1/2" of foam between the slab and foundation
>wall will work wonders, although 1" is better.
>I know that the slab edge in a normal building looks quite bright on a
>IR camera (not necessarily equal to total energy loss, just concentrated
>energy loss), and that this is a sensible place to insulate, but I don't
>think it makes that much of a difference to annual energy cost for
>places with 3 or 4000 HDD. When you radiantly heat the slab and/or are
>in a cold climate (starting at 6 - 8000 HDD) you should at least do the
>perimeter walls.
>
>Why is it again that we cant insulate between the stem wall and the
>slab?
>
>John Straube
>Dept of Civil Engineering and School of Architecture
>University of Waterloo
>Waterloo, Canada
>http://www.civil.uwaterloo.ca/beg
>
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: GSBN [mailto:GSBN@...] On Behalf Of Nehemiah
>Stone
>Sent: March 10, 2003 23:07
>To: GSBN
>Subject: Re: GSBN:Re: : slab edge insulation
>
>
>I beg to differ with John and John.  I did a fair amount of infrared
>camera work a number of years ago to see where heat exits a building in
>central California.  We would crank the heating system up to a little
>bit above what one would normally heat a house to, and then film it
>from the outside in the middle of the night.  The three greatest loss
>sites for a "normally" insulated house (one that just meets the minimum
>California requirements), were (1) the aluminum frames of windows, (2)
>the slab edge, and (3) hot water pipes and other pipes (e.g., the
>pop-off valve) near the water heater.  Slab edges, when the slab is
>exposed to the night sky, account for a VERY significant portion of the
>winter heat losses.  Slab edges, when they are tucked under a very wide
>eave, account for a lot less.  And slab edges that are insulated, very
>much less still.  If a person is going to have a a radiant floor
>heating system, then they absolutely should insulate the slab edge.
>There are products available that have a hard styrene material
>surrounding the insulation.  The hard coating (1) looks good, and (2)
>has a key that ties into the slab so that termites cannot pass between
>the two building elements.  The insulation is used as the form when
>pouring the slab.
>
>Nehemiah Stone
>
>
>On Tuesday, March 4, 2003, at 05:22 PM, John Swearingen wrote:
>
> > I agree with John Straube about not using slab insulation in SUNNY
> > California.  We have areas that have severe winters and deep frosts,
> > but in most areas we are designing for cooling loads more than
> > heating. Experience, as well as computer simulations, show about a 5F
> > lowering of
> > ambient  temperatures for four or five summer months when slab
> > insulation is
> > removed.  The corresponding increase in heating loads is usually
> > minimal and
> > only significant for a couple of months.
> >
> > John
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: GSBN [mailto:GSBN@...]On Behalf Of John
> > Straube
> > Sent: Tuesday, March 04, 2003 1:35 PM
> > To: 'GSBN'
> > Cc: bainbrid@...
> > Subject: RE: GSBN:Re: : slab edge insulation
> >
> >
> > I would not use any insul below slabs in sunny california, but would
> > use
> > it on the stem wall.
> > Protection is easy -- you plaster bales? Well you can plaster the foam
> > too. The termites are a bigger issue, best solved IMHO with a peel and
> > stick over the concrete and down the face of the foam/Mineral fiber
>2",
> > then plaster over.
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: GSBN [mailto:GSBN@...] On Behalf Of Bob
> > Bolles
> > Sent: March 4, 2003 12:11
> > To: GSBN
> > Cc: bainbrid@...
> > Subject: RE: GSBN:Re: : slab edge insulation
> >
> >
> > Hi John
> > You wrote"
> > <snip>
> >> "Finally, if you are using a concrete foundation, adding a couple
> >> inches
> > of foam or fiber insulation to the exteiror of the foundation is
> > likely to be easier and high performance"
> >
> > Well, therein lies the problem
> > If you place the foam on the exterior, first there is the appearance
> > issue, as well as protecting it from damage. Then, I have to ask if
> > this would potentially provide a path, behind the foam or through it,
> > for termites, ants and other little critters?
> >
> > I believe that insulation under the slab is probably appropriate for
> > cold climates, but I am working in sunny Southern California. How much
>
> > insulation should we use, if any, below the slab.
> >
> > Regards
> > Bob
> >
> > Bob Bolles
> > Sustainable Building Solutions
> > Bob@...
> > www.StrawBaleHouse.com
> >  "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary
>
> > safety deserve neither liberty nor safety"  Benjamin Franklin
> >
> >
> > ----
> > For instructions on joining, leaving, or otherwise using the GSBN
> > list, send email to GSBN@...HELP in the
> > SUBJECT line.
> >
> > ----
> >
> >
> > ----
> > For instructions on joining, leaving, or otherwise using the GSBN
> > list, send
> > email to GSBN@...HELP in the SUBJECT line.
> > ----
> >
> >
> >
> > ----
> > For instructions on joining, leaving, or otherwise using the GSBN
> > list, send email to GSBN@...HELP in the
> > SUBJECT line.
> > ----
> >
>
>----
>For instructions on joining, leaving, or otherwise using the GSBN list,
>send email to GSBN@...HELP in the SUBJECT line.
>
>----
>



Rene Dalmeijer



----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 11 Mar 2003 15:51:11 -0600
From: bainbridge bainbrid@...
Subject: termite shields


Followup on slab edge - also pipe penetrations etc. This product 
looks promising but field results are still just a few years

The Termimesh Company was founded specifically to develop a safer and 
far more effective alternative to traditional termite pesticides.

Extensive research and testing of many different materials clearly 
established that a flexible, stainless steel mesh provided the most 
effective means of stopping termites.

This was lateral thinking and a world first. In May 1990, the 
business was founded and in 1991 after extensive testing, the 
Australian CSIRO gave the Termimesh System its seal of approval. More 
awards and certification standards followed.

A Service Centre network was started in 1992, and Termimesh spread 
across Australia. The first United States outlet was opened in Hawaii 
in 1995 followed by Florida and Texas. There are now Termimesh 
Service Centers throughout Australia and five international outlets. 
http://www.termi-mesh.com/
- -- 
David Bainbridge
Environmental Studies Coordinator
CAS
Alliant International University
10455 Pomerado Road
San Diego, CA 92131

Fax (858) 635-4730
Ph (858) 635-4616
http://academic.alliant.edu/bainbridge/
http://www.sustainableenergy.org/resources/technologies/solar_passive.htm
http:SustainableSources.com

The future isn't something hidden in a corner. The future is 
something we build in the present. Paulo Freire


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<html><head><style type="text/css"><!--
blockquote, dl, ul, ol, li { margin-top: 0 ; margin-bottom: 0 }
 --></style><title>termite shields</title></head><body>
Followup on slab edge - also pipe penetrations etc. This product
looks promising but field results are still just a few years
 
<font face="Arial" size="+2" color="#000000"><i>The Termimesh
Company was founded specifically to develop a safer and far more
effective alternative to traditional termite pesticides.</i> 
 
Extensive research and testing of many different materials clearly
established that a flexible, stainless steel mesh provided the most
effective means of stopping termites. 
 
This was lateral thinking and a world first. In May 1990, the
business was founded and in 1991 after extensive testing, the
Australian CSIRO gave the Termimesh System its seal of approval. More
awards and certification standards followed. 
 
A Service Centre network was started in 1992, and Termimesh spread
across Australia. The first United States outlet was opened in Hawaii
in 1995 followed by Florida and Texas. There are now Termimesh
Service Centers throughout Australia and five international
outlets.  http://www.termi-mesh.com/</font>

<font color="#000000">--  
David Bainbridge 
Environmental Studies Coordinator 
CAS 
Alliant International University 
10455 Pomerado Road 
San Diego, CA 92131 
 
Fax (858) 635-4730 
Ph (858) 635-4616 
http://academic.alliant.edu/bainbridge/ 
http://www.sustainableenergy.org/resources<span
></span>/technologies/solar_passive.htm  
http:SustainableSources.com</font>
<font color="#000000"> </font>
<font color="#000000">The future isn't something hidden in a
corner. The future is something we build in the present. Paulo
Freire</font><font face="Times New Roman" size="+3"
color="#000000"></font>
</body>
</html>
- --============_-1164704373==_ma============--


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Date: 11 Mar 2003 20:53:30 -0600
From: Strawnet@...
Subject: Planning to be in the UK the end of May/early June

Hello all,

I wanted to explore a possibility with some of the folks on this list - 
that I have been invited to give a presentation in early June in 
Edinburgh, Scotland for the Royal Institute of Chartered Surveyors (code 
officials) on issues related to sustainability and codes. I am also 
hoping to get down to Hastings to visit my dear friend John Turner on 
this trip, meaning that I will essentially be traveling through much of 
England and Scotland while there. 

One of the issues that I am also dealing with is that the honor of giving 
this presentation comes only with expenses covered and a very small 
stipend for the time of the conference, and so I am wanting to explore 
the potential to give a seminar, talk, do some consultations, etc. that 
might help offset the costs of this trip.  As it stands, I hope to leave 
for the UK at the beginning of the last week of May, the conference runs 
June 3-6 and I speak in Edinburgh on June 4th. I need to return to the US 
on the 8th  or 9th at the latest, as I have workshops to lead in Colorado 
later that week. That means that I will likely fly to Gatwick, around the 
26th, go down to Hastings for a couple of days than head north. 

So if anyone is interested in arranging something along the way, that 
would be great. And if not, we'll just have to see whether I can make 
this trip work. 

Sorry for not jumping in more often in the discussions here. Slab 
insulation...hmm, nothing clever to add comes to mind that hasn't been 
said.  Interesting as this list often is, we're really scrambling at DCAT 
to keep afloat as we have lost virtually all of our grant funding over 
the past year. So we're doing more contract and fee for services work, 
while also looking for ways to raise more money, which just eats up my 
time - and we're also down to just Tony Novelli, me (and Holly Altman for 
a few hours a week managing the books and such). So, more to do, less 
support and time to do it. 

We are still making some good progress with the codes work but it is a 
struggle to keep it going without support. But I know that DCAT isn't 
alone in this struggle. But if any of you have big pots of money laying 
around that you just can't figure out what to do with...

hanging in there and working for peace,

David




"Civil disobedience is not our problem. Our problem
is civil obedience. Our problem is that numbers of 
people all over the world have obeyed the dictates 
of the leaders of their government and have gone to
war, and millions have been killed because of this 
obedience... Our problem is that people are 
obedient all over the world in the face of poverty 
and starvation and stupidity, and war, and cruelty.
Our problem is that people are obedient while the 
jails are full of petty thieves, and all the while
the grand thieves are running and robbing the 
country. That's our problem." 
   - Howard Zinn, "Failure to Quit"



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