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GSBN: Digest for 4/4/05



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-> Re: GSBN:Re: holding down the roof (was: Look Ma', no hands!)
     by Rene Dalmeijer rene.dalmeijer@...
-> FW: Intentional Community in Oregon seeks Natural Builder
     by Joyce Coppinger jc10508@...
-> Looking for someone to help with winery project
     by Joyce Coppinger jc10508@...
-> Re: GSBN:Looking for someone to help with winery project
     by "Lars Keller" larskeller@...
-> Re:  GSBN:Looking for someone to help with winery project
     by Strawnet@...
-> RE: GSBN:Looking for someone to help with winery project
     by "Huff'n'Puff" huffnpuff@...
-> Re: GSBN:Looking for someone to help with winery project
     by Joyce Coppinger jc10508@...
-> Re: GSBN:Looking for someone to help with winery project
     by Joyce Coppinger jc10508@...
-> Re: GSBN:Looking for someone to help with winery project
     by Joyce Coppinger jc10508@...
-> Re: GSBN:Looking for someone to help with winery project
     by Bruce King ecobruce@...


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Date: 4 Apr 2005 05:50:14 -0600
From: Rene Dalmeijer rene.dalmeijer@...
Subject: Re: GSBN:Re: holding down the roof (was: Look Ma', no hands!)

Mark, and all others


On Mar 30, 2005, at 21:57, Mark Piepkorn wrote:

> Back in Lars Keller's longhair days, a bunch of Euros and a couple
> Aussies
> came to cowboy country. I think it had something to do with Judy and
> Matts.
> This wild bunch raced up and down the western U.S.A., perplexing the
> 'Murricans with their excellent insights and clever questions. I tagged
> along indiscreetly in a red Metro.
I can vividly remember the red Metro also the Songdog ranch and the
strawbaliens. Alas since then my memory has seem to have grown less
acute. (I can vaguely remember drinking some spirits on the said eve)

> <a  target="_blank" href="http://www.potkettleblack.com/natbild/strawbaliens.html";>http://www.potkettleblack.com/natbild/strawbaliens.html</a>
>
> I seem to recall a tale told by the self-builders at Songdog Ranch -
> they
> built their big SB house in 1987 - about sitting inside during a big
> windstorm and watching a corner of the roof lift up enough to alarm the
> Harley-riding Californians, then settle back down... in mostly the
> right place.
>
> Probably there was somebody there who was a better memory than me, like
> Rhine-mouth Rene, with a better recollection of the details.

See the above expose regarding my sagging memory.

In most conditions the dead loads of a roof are amply sufficient to
keep a roof down. Wind can seem powerful but in fact is quite puny
compared to most building structure weights. Meaning in most cases that
even with high winds up to even force 10 storms the dead loads will
keep the hat on. There is a catch though some roofing materials are
quite light and therefore need to be attached quite well to resist the
loads imposed. This is due to the regular buffeting caused by wind
turbulence. What happens then is that the combined effects of wind and
a resonating structure helps to destroy fastenings and give the initial
push for liftoff. What this means is that edges of roofs should be well
attached, able to resist even slight movement of roofing or other edge
structures like gutters. (Easily tested by just grasping the edge and
tugging it should not move easily any sign of resonance is not a good
sign regarding resistance to storm damage.)

force 6 = 40 ft/s = 2 lb/ft^2
force 10 = 88 ft/s = 9 lb/ft^2

This is based on a steady wind and accounting for a lift coefficient of
1 for the wind load. In gusts wind loads can go up by as much as twice
the average but this is rare 1.6 is mostly what occurs. The lift
coefficient will hardly ever be much higher then 1.2 although building
codes sometimes go up to 2 which is ridiculous meaning a building is a
far better lift generating device then the average airfoil. Further
please note that the wind load goes up by wind speed squared and not
linear.

Rene



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Date: 4 Apr 2005 09:58:52 -0600
From: Joyce Coppinger jc10508@...
Subject: FW: Intentional Community in Oregon seeks Natural Builder

Passing along as requested. Joyce
- ----------
> From: Marty Wilder marty@...
> Date: Mon, 04 Apr 2005 02:01:38 -0700
> To: thelaststraw@...
> Subject: Intentional Community in Oregon seeks Natural Builder
>
> Please post widely.
>
> Lost Valley Educational Center seeks an experienced natural builder to lead
> us in realizing our visions to create beautiful new spaces and enhance
> existing structures. Experience could include cob, straw bale, light-clay,
> wattle-and-daub, timber framing, rammed earth, cordwood masonry,
> papercrete, stone, living roofs, natural plasters and finishes, and
> alternative foundations. Ideally, this person would be able to lead
> workshops in the same. Familiarity with the Pacific Northwest bioregion a
> plus. General building skills required, including electrical and plumbing.
> This position involves management skills, project planning, and site design
> as well as hands-on building and repair.
>
> Lost Valley Educational Center is an intentional community of approximately
> 20 members who live and work on 87 acres of rural land outside of Eugene,
> Oregon. We pride ourselves in honest, open-hearted communication, consensus
> decision-making, finding balance between the needs of the person and the
> group and between a fully sustainable life-style and with the larger
> culture. We host many workshops as part of our Educational Center,
> including a thriving permaculture program, and a thriving personal growth
> program, Heart of Now, which are presented by Lost Valley staff.
>
> We are currently looking for new members to join us in this exciting
> adventure. There are several "jobs" available as well as a number of other
> community spaces for people with independent income. You must become a
> community member in order to apply for a "job".
>
> We appreciate community members who have people skills, are grounded,
> generous, honest, have integrity, joy, are financial responsibility,
> accepting of others' differences, group-minded, self-motivated, dedicated
> to sustainability and willing to love self and others.
>
> Folks who have slightly less experience than we desire, can not give a time
> commitment, or are not interested in community membership right away, may
> be eligible for our maintenance team member position or internship.
>
> For more information, check out our website at <a  target="_blank" href="http://www.lostvalley.org";>http://www.lostvalley.org</a> or
> reply to this email.
> Marty Wilder
> 81868 Lost Valley Lane
> Dexter, OR 97431
> (541) 937-4275
>



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Date: 4 Apr 2005 14:49:51 -0600
From: Joyce Coppinger jc10508@...
Subject: Looking for someone to help with winery project

Hi all,

A SB wine cold storage project is developing in eastern South Dakota. We're
looking for someone to help design and build the project. Any suggestions or
offers?

Joyce
- --
Joyce Coppinger
ReBuild Associates
Lincoln NE 68506
jc10508@...
402.483.5135, fax 402.483.5161





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Date: 4 Apr 2005 15:09:43 -0600
From: "Lars Keller" larskeller@...
Subject: Re: GSBN:Looking for someone to help with winery project

John Glassford built one in Victoria, near Melbourne: Monica's Vineyard.
There might be some relevant experiences to pick up from there.
Lars Keller

~~~
 
- ----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Joyce Coppinger" jc10508@...
To: "GSBN" GSBN@...
Sent: Monday, April 04, 2005 10:20 PM
Subject: GSBN:Looking for someone to help with winery project


> Hi all,
> 
> A SB wine cold storage project is developing in eastern South Dakota. We're
> looking for someone to help design and build the project. Any suggestions or
> offers?
> 
> Joyce
> --
> Joyce Coppinger
> ReBuild Associates
> Lincoln NE 68506
> jc10508@...
> 402.483.5135, fax 402.483.5161
> 
> 
> 
> ----
> GSBN is an invitation-only forum of key individuals and representatives of
regional straw construction organizations. The costs of operating this list
are underwritten by The Last Straw Journal in exchange for use of the GSBN as
an advisory board and technical editing arm.
> 
> For instructions on joining, leaving, or otherwise using the GSBN list, send
email to GSBN@...HELP in the SUBJECT line.  
> ----
>


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 4 Apr 2005 15:39:12 -0600
From: Strawnet@...
Subject: Re:  GSBN:Looking for someone to help with winery project

>Hi all,
>
>A SB wine cold storage project is developing in eastern South Dakota. We're
>looking for someone to help design and build the project. Any suggestions or
>offers?
>
>Joyce

Only a caution about the moisture issues with creating a straw bale
refrigerator - you mentioned "cold" storage and I don't know whether this
is "cool" or "cold." But if it's a temperature that would be below the
dew point for at least part of the time, condensation is likely to occur
on the inside (inside the wall assembly) plaster surface on the interior
side of the wall - so any moisture that gets into the wall assembly will
be migrating to the interior. So you probably need to design and build so
that the exterior finish is tighter (from a water vapor standpoint) than
the interior so that moisture can continue on its way to the interior of
the building - this is like building in the south - hot-humid climate
with warmer moister air migrating toward the cooler, drier interior.

There have been a couple of moisture failures that I'm aware of with
essentially big straw bale insulated refrigerators. Knowing that you've
got to deal with this from the start should go a long way toward keeping
it from being a problem.

If it's really "cold" and not just cool - than you might think about
building the wall, plastering the interior and then essentially
constructing an airtight foam "box" inside the building so that the dew
point occurs inside the foam where condensation can't take place.

David

David Eisenberg, Director
Development Center for Appropriate Technology
P.O. Box 27513, Tucson, AZ  85726-7513
(520) 624-6628 voice / (520) 798-3701 fax
strawnet@...
<a  target="_blank" href="http://www.dcat.net";>http://www.dcat.net</a>

"Truly appropriate technology is technology that ordinary people
can use for their own benefit and the benefit of their community
that doesn't make them dependent on systems over which they have
no control."             John F.C. Turner



----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 4 Apr 2005 15:57:56 -0600
From: "Huff'n'Puff" huffnpuff@...
Subject: RE: GSBN:Looking for someone to help with winery project

G 'day

Only too happy to help with a winery in South Dakota.  However it is a
fair way from Ganmain.

Following Desert Dave's comments on moisture the winery in Lethbridge
and the ones at Eugowra and Mudgee all have excellent venting in the
roofs to get rid of any condensation.  As well and as importantly the
roofs are lined with anti-con sarking as well as insulation.

I do not know how I can help South Dakota?  However I will be happy to
receive any emails from South Dakota via you Joyce.

Kind regards
The Straw Wolf
<a  target="_blank" href="http://strawbale.archinet.com.au";>http://strawbale.archinet.com.au</a>






----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 4 Apr 2005 17:07:34 -0600
From: Joyce Coppinger jc10508@...
Subject: Re: GSBN:Looking for someone to help with winery project

Thanks John. Appreciate the information and offer. I'll keep you posted.

Joyce

on 4.4.2005 4:32 PM, Huff'n'Puff at huffnpuff@...:

> G 'day
>
> Only too happy to help with a winery in South Dakota.  However it is a
> fair way from Ganmain.
>
> Following Desert Dave's comments on moisture the winery in Lethbridge
> and the ones at Eugowra and Mudgee all have excellent venting in the
> roofs to get rid of any condensation.  As well and as importantly the
> roofs are lined with anti-con sarking as well as insulation.
>
> I do not know how I can help South Dakota?  However I will be happy to
> receive any emails from South Dakota via you Joyce.
>
> Kind regards
> The Straw Wolf
> <a  target="_blank" href="http://strawbale.archinet.com.au";>http://strawbale.archinet.com.au</a>
>
>
>
>
> ----
> GSBN is an invitation-only forum of key individuals and representatives of
> regional straw construction organizations. The costs of operating this list
> are underwritten by The Last Straw Journal in exchange for use of the GSBN
as
> an advisory board and technical editing arm.
>
> For instructions on joining, leaving, or otherwise using the GSBN list, send
> email to GSBN@...HELP in the SUBJECT line.
> ----
>



----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 4 Apr 2005 17:15:12 -0600
From: Joyce Coppinger jc10508@...
Subject: Re: GSBN:Looking for someone to help with winery project

Thanks for the information. Will pass it along.

Joyce

on 4.4.2005 4:09 PM, Strawnet@...Strawnet@...:

>> Hi all,
>>
>> A SB wine cold storage project is developing in eastern South Dakota. We're
>> looking for someone to help design and build the project. Any suggestions
or
>> offers?
>>
>> Joyce
>
> Only a caution about the moisture issues with creating a straw bale
> refrigerator - you mentioned "cold" storage and I don't know whether this
> is "cool" or "cold." But if it's a temperature that would be below the
> dew point for at least part of the time, condensation is likely to occur
> on the inside (inside the wall assembly) plaster surface on the interior
> side of the wall - so any moisture that gets into the wall assembly will
> be migrating to the interior. So you probably need to design and build so
> that the exterior finish is tighter (from a water vapor standpoint) than
> the interior so that moisture can continue on its way to the interior of
> the building - this is like building in the south - hot-humid climate
> with warmer moister air migrating toward the cooler, drier interior.
>
> There have been a couple of moisture failures that I'm aware of with
> essentially big straw bale insulated refrigerators. Knowing that you've
> got to deal with this from the start should go a long way toward keeping
> it from being a problem.
>
> If it's really "cold" and not just cool - than you might think about
> building the wall, plastering the interior and then essentially
> constructing an airtight foam "box" inside the building so that the dew
> point occurs inside the foam where condensation can't take place.
>
> David
>
> David Eisenberg, Director
> Development Center for Appropriate Technology
> P.O. Box 27513, Tucson, AZ  85726-7513
> (520) 624-6628 voice / (520) 798-3701 fax
> strawnet@...
> <a  target="_blank" href="http://www.dcat.net";>http://www.dcat.net</a>
>
> "Truly appropriate technology is technology that ordinary people
> can use for their own benefit and the benefit of their community
> that doesn't make them dependent on systems over which they have
> no control."             John F.C. Turner
>
> ----
> GSBN is an invitation-only forum of key individuals and representatives of
> regional straw construction organizations. The costs of operating this list
> are underwritten by The Last Straw Journal in exchange for use of the GSBN
as
> an advisory board and technical editing arm.
>
> For instructions on joining, leaving, or otherwise using the GSBN list, send
> email to GSBN@...HELP in the SUBJECT line.
> ----
>



----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 4 Apr 2005 17:16:44 -0600
From: Joyce Coppinger jc10508@...
Subject: Re: GSBN:Looking for someone to help with winery project

Thanks Lars. Appreciate the help.

Joyce

on 4.4.2005 3:40 PM, Lars Keller at larskeller@...:

> John Glassford built one in Victoria, near Melbourne: Monica's Vineyard.
> There might be some relevant experiences to pick up from there.
> Lars Keller
>
> ~~~
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Joyce Coppinger" jc10508@...
> To: "GSBN" GSBN@...
> Sent: Monday, April 04, 2005 10:20 PM
> Subject: GSBN:Looking for someone to help with winery project
>
>
>> Hi all,
>>
>> A SB wine cold storage project is developing in eastern South Dakota. We're
>> looking for someone to help design and build the project. Any suggestions
or
>> offers?
>>
>> Joyce
>> --
>> Joyce Coppinger
>> ReBuild Associates
>> Lincoln NE 68506
>> jc10508@...
>> 402.483.5135, fax 402.483.5161
>>
>>
>>
>> ----
>> GSBN is an invitation-only forum of key individuals and representatives of
>> regional straw construction organizations. The costs of operating this list
>> are underwritten by The Last Straw Journal in exchange for use of the GSBN
as
>> an advisory board and technical editing arm.
>>
>> For instructions on joining, leaving, or otherwise using the GSBN list,
send
>> email to GSBN@...HELP in the SUBJECT line.
>> ----
>>
> ----
> GSBN is an invitation-only forum of key individuals and representatives of
> regional straw construction organizations. The costs of operating this list
> are underwritten by The Last Straw Journal in exchange for use of the GSBN
as
> an advisory board and technical editing arm.
>
> For instructions on joining, leaving, or otherwise using the GSBN list, send
> email to GSBN@...HELP in the SUBJECT line.
> ----
>



----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 4 Apr 2005 17:42:53 -0600
From: Bruce King ecobruce@...
Subject: Re: GSBN:Looking for someone to help with winery project


On Apr 4, 2005, at 1:20 PM, Joyce Coppinger wrote:

> Hi all,
>
> A SB wine cold storage project is developing in eastern South Dakota.
> We're
> looking for someone to help design and build the project. Any
> suggestions or
> offers?

Joyce, any of a great number of the members of this list could provide
a bit of coaching
to a local design team and builder.  There are lots of straw bale
wineries in California --
John Straube is still moisture monitoring one of them (right, John?
Hey, you awake?)

David Eisenberg and I are providing just that sort of consulting right
now on large
buildings in Maryland and, I think, Pennsylvania.  I'd be glad to do so
for whomever
wants to build this winery.


Bruce King, PE
Director, Ecological Building Network  ( www.ecobuildnetwork.org )
Publisher, Green Building Press  ( www.greenbuildingpress.com )
209 Caledonia St.
Sausalito, CA 94965  USA
(415) 331-7630
fax 332-4072
bruce@ ecobuildnetwork.org


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