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GSBN: Digest for 7/30/05



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-> Re: GSBN:Cold storage?
     by "Lorenzo Robles" lorobles55@...
-> Fwd: Pine straw bale construction?
     by Catherine Wanek blackrange@...
-> Re: Cold storage
     by "Rob Tom" archilogic@...
-> Re: Cold storage
     by Derek Roff derek@...
-> Take two -- Pine straw bale construction?
     by Catherine Wanek blackrange@...


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Date: 30 Jul 2005 07:07:41 -0600
From: "Lorenzo Robles" lorobles55@...
Subject: Re: GSBN:Cold storage?

Hello Andr#233#, #231#a va bien?
 straw has been used for cold storage since medieval times in Europe, and
even before, in Persia.
Ice was collected in winter, brought in as ice blocks stored as bricks in a
wall.
They used no baled straw but tightly bound packs of sraw, pressed against
the walls of the "cold chamber", often a dry well dug in stone or dry earth,
facing north (hill, castle  or cave).
  I have visited such a cold chamber in the castle of Chaumont, on the Loire
valley. The hole was several cubic meters (maybe 16) and went quite deep
under the earth.(stone-coated inside).A good half meter thick straw coat
would do the insulation. The ice would be kept all year, until late autumn.
The top was made of wood, thickly coverd with straw. The food wasnt there,
as the ice alone was stored,  and collected periodically to be brought into
the castles cellars to keep the food fresh, make icy beverages and even ice
creams.
   Pre-islamic Persian knew how to keep ice on long periods (and even make
ice production in wide pools, on chilly nights all  winter.round).
They used similar methods combining straw and deep cellars.
In very cold places, straw doesnt rot quickly, because bacterias are not
encouraged by low temperatures. And then, when the sraw gets to wet to
remain good for insulation, it is easy and cheap to change for new.
All the best to everyone at la maison en paille!
cheers
Lorenzo
- ----- Original Message -----
From: "Andr#233# de Bouter" forum@...
To: "GSBN" GSBN@...
Sent: Wednesday, July 27, 2005 12:19 PM
Subject: GSBN:Cold storage?


> Hello everyone,
>
> A question that I receive more and more is:
> Can SB be used for cold storage?
> And if so, can we go well below freezing (-20#176#C)?
>
> Typically these refrigerators/freezers are (more or less?) airtight on the
> inside. Sometimes people want to put them in very hot climates.
>
> This question leads me to a second. Would there be any arguments against
> tiling
> a (SB) room completly?
>
> All coments are welcomed as I lack info to confidently reply to these to
> questions.
>
> Warm greetings,
> Andr#233#
> ----
> GSBN is an invitation-only forum of key individuals and representatives of
> regional straw construction organizations. The costs of operating this
> list are underwritten by The Last Straw Journal in exchange for use of the
> GSBN as an advisory board and technical editing arm.
>
> For instructions on joining, leaving, or otherwise using the GSBN list,
> send email to GSBN@...HELP in the SUBJECT line.
> ----
>
>


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Date: 30 Jul 2005 12:08:49 -0600
From: Catherine Wanek blackrange@...
Subject: Fwd: Pine straw bale construction?

Has anyone heard of this, and/or does anyone have some advice for this person?
thanks,
Catherine Wanek


>Subject: Pine straw bale construction?
>To: blackrange@...
>
>Hello Catherine, My name is A.K. Harrison and I live in the South
>(Hattiesburg, Mississippi). I am going to build a pole house and use straw
>bale wall construction. My question is, can I use pine needle bales? I
>don't know how familiar you are with pine needles, but we use it here for
>mulch because it doesn't decay for several years. The needles, about 10
>inches long, are thin and flat with a waxy coating which gives them a
>waterproof texture. Several years ago they began baling the straw for
>mulch and they sale bales here 14x16x 24" long and weigh about 35 pounds.
>Have you heard of their use in straw bale construction? I have not found
>anyone in the straw bale Registry that has used them. I have just started
>my research and have several e-mails sent out, but no one has answered
>them as of yet. They started the baling of pine straw several years ago
>for landscape mulch purposes and I wonder if it's just that no one has
>tried them as of now. I lit a bale on fire and all it did was smolder
>because of the compactness. They sale them by the truck loads, in 48' dry
>vans, for $2.95 a bale. That's 1300 bales; a lot more than I would need,
>but you see my point. There's plenty of it here. Every year, around
>September, the pines replenish their needles. Soon after this time is the
>best time to get them because they're fresh and clean. Can you give me any
>advice? I talked to one distributor in Georgia, that sells both wheat
>straw and pine straw bales, and he said the pine straw mulch last longer
>in beds than the wheat. However, he has only heard of wheat straw being
>used for building. Maybe I'll be the first.  Thanks for any advice, A.K.


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Date: 30 Jul 2005 12:17:10 -0600
From: "Rob Tom" archilogic@...
Subject: Re: Cold storage


"Andre de Bouter" forum@... wrote:

> A question that I receive more and more is:
> Can SB be used for cold storage?
> And if so, can we go well below freezing (-20#176#C)?
>
> Typically these refrigerators/freezers are (more or less?) airtight on
> the
> inside. Sometimes people want to put them in very hot climates.

Andre;

Making a cold storage building is tricky business and I would say, not
recommended for SB builders who have no experience in detailing airtight
construction.

An illustration as to why not:

Years ago kitchen refrigerators were made using fibreglass insulation.
I had one with an ice/water dispenser in the freezer door. During one
humid summer,
I found a puddle around the fridge.

Eventually I discovered that the source of the water was not a plumbing
leak (ie from the plumbing for the water/ice dispenser) but rather, from
the water-logged fibreglass insulation inside of the door cavity.

Humidity from the house interior was finding its way into the door cavity
through air leaks and condensing when it hit the cold interior side of the
door to the freezer.

This was occuring inside of the house, where the temperature difference
between the house interior (typically 20-25 degC (70-75 degF) and the
freezer interior (-5.5 degC (22 degF)) would be a mere 25-30 degC  (48 -53
degF), with interior relative humidity in the 60-70% range, with a unit
made in a factory out of industrial sheet goods.

A cold storage building with interior temperature at or just above the
freezing point of water in Ottawa could easily be subjected to outdoor
summer temps of 30 degC or more, with outdoor relative humidity above 90%
much of the time.

With anything less than near-perfect air-sealing, such
temperature/humidity conditions would guaranty fetid goo brew in the walls
within (a wild-@$$ guesstimate) 12 years.

Not a problem if the building owner is prepared to rebuild the walls in
10-15 years and deal with the potential hazardous waste (ie stachybotrys
atra, requiring respirators, Tyvek overalls etc.) during deconstruction.

I'm sure there will be some who would argue that with a "breathable
plaster" moisture would not have an opportunity to accumulate in the straw
but to them I would ask:
"What would be the driving force to faciliate that drying (in a cold
storage building) ?"

=== * ===
Rob Tom
Kanata, Ontario, Canada
<ArchiLogic at chaffyahoo dot ca>
(winnow the chaff  from my edress in your reply)



----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 30 Jul 2005 13:10:30 -0600
From: Derek Roff derek@...
Subject: Re: Cold storage

- --On Saturday, July 30, 2005 1:10 PM -0400 Rob Tom archilogic@...
wrote:

> Making a cold storage building is tricky business and I would say, not
> recommended for SB builders who have no experience in detailing airtight
> construction.

A tricky business, indeed.  If the future owner wants to build it and
forget it, Nature and Rob Tom are likely to show up in a few years to
remind them that the potential problems have now become manifest.  On the
other hand, if the owner recognizes that the entire cold storage building
is a system, and each component requires proper attention and integration
into the whole, I think there are possibilities for success.

For example, what about building as air-tight a storage enclosure as
possible, and then leaving an accessible-by-humans air space between that
and the strawbale insulating envelope?  Say, 1 meter on all sides except
the floor.  In this space, place moisture sensors and a dehumidifier.  This
approach would cost more, take more space, but would be inspectable and
maintainable.  It might outlive Rob Tom, which would be a significant
safety factor.

Someone who knows more than I do (which leaves it pretty wide open) could
probably come up with an even more effective and efficient approach.

Derelict

Derek Roff
Language Learning Center
Ortega Hall 129, MSC03-2100
University of New Mexico
Albuquerque, NM 87131-0001
505/277-7368, fax 505/277-3885
Internet: derek@...



----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 30 Jul 2005 15:13:35 -0600
From: Catherine Wanek blackrange@...
Subject: Take two -- Pine straw bale construction?

RE my first email on this.... there must be a robot snipping forwarded
text... here it is in full below:
Has anyone heard of this, and/or does anyone have some advice for this person?
thanks,
Catherine Wanek


>Subject: Pine straw bale construction?
>To: blackrange@...

Hello Catherine, My name is A.K. Harrison and I live in the South
(Hattiesburg, MS). I am going to build a pole house and use straw
bale  wall construction. My question is, can I use pine needle bales? I
don't know how familiar you are with pine needles, but we use it here for
mulch because it doesn't decay for several years. The needles, about 10
inches long, are thin and flat with a waxy coating which gives them a
waterproof texture. Several years ago they began baling the straw for mulch
and they sale bales here 14x16x 24" long and weigh about 35 pounds. Have
you heard of their use in straw bale construction? I have not found anyone
in the straw bale Registry that has used them. I have just started my
research and have several e-mails sent out, but no one has answered them as
of yet. They started the baling of pine straw several years ago for
landscape mulch purposes and I wonder if it's just that no one has tried
them as of now. I lit a bale on fire and all it did was smolder because of
the compactness. They sale them by the truck loads, in 48' dry vans, for
$2.95 a bale. That's 1300 bales; a lot more than I would need, but you see
my point. There's plenty of it here. Every year, around September, the
pines replenish their needles. Soon after this time is the best time to get
them because they're fresh and clean. Can you give me any advice? I talked
to one distributor in Georgia, that sells both wheat straw and pine straw
bales, and he said the pine straw mulch last longer in beds than the wheat.
However, he has only heard of wheat straw being used for building. Maybe
I'll be the first.  Thanks for any advice, A.K.


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multipart/alternative
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