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GSBN: Digest for 2/19/06



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-> Straw Bale  and Plumbing
     by Martin Hammer mfhammer@...
-> Re: GSBN:Straw Bale and Plumbing
     by john@...
-> GSBN Member List
     by Joyce Coppinger jc10508@...
-> Re: GSBN:Straw Bale  and Plumbing
     by "Bohdan Dorniak & Co Pty Ltd" bdco@...
-> RE: GSBN:Straw Bale  and Plumbing
     by laura@...
-> Re: GSBN:Straw Bale  and Plumbing
     by jeff@...
-> FW: Project assistance
     by Joyce Coppinger jc10508@...


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Date: 19 Feb 2006 11:36:54 -0600
From: Martin Hammer mfhammer@...
Subject: Straw Bale  and Plumbing

Greetings GSBN members -

In a recent peer review meeting of the proposed California SB Code, the
conventional wisdom that plumbing in straw bale walls is a potential problem
was challenged.  Almost all U.S. SB Codes have a requirement that pipes for
plumbing in SB walls be sleeved.  For example: "Water or gas pipes within
bale walls shall be encased in a continuous pipe sleeve to prevent leakage
within the wall."  The term "water pipes" is usually understood to include
supply, drain, waste and vent pipes.

The logic goes that a sleeved pipe (with a presumed outlet outside the wall)
would protect against water intrusion into the bale wall from a leak, or
from condensation on the surface of the pipe, especially on cold water pipes
or pipes that extend to the exterior in cold air.

The logic against such a requirement is that it makes SB builders' lives
more difficult every time plumbing is installed in a SB wall, for a
speculated problem that rarely if ever occurs.  If a leak occurs with or
without a sleeve, one would know about it and would need to open up the bale
wall either way.  If condensation occurs it would cause only minor and local
deterioration at worst (?).  In addition, there is no such code requirement,
practice, or concern (?) for plumbing in wood framed walls, which is
certainly, though maybe not equally, susceptible to damage from water.

We're considering removing this requirement altogether from the proposed
California code.  Before doing so, I'm interested to know if anyone has any
ACTUAL experience with such a problem from plumbing in SB walls.  And maybe
Matts M. or David E. could chime in regarding the requirement's origin in
the Tucson / Pima County Code.

Thanks for any reply.

Martin Hammer
California



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Date: 19 Feb 2006 14:41:57 -0600
From: john@...
Subject: Re: GSBN:Straw Bale and Plumbing

G ' day Martin

We always put high pressure water pipes in a sleeve when the pipes have to
go through the straw.  We always try to have high pressure water go another
route.  That is anywhere except through the straw bale walls.

If they run up the outside of a straw bale wall then it is optional, I feel,
to sleeve the pipes as they will be covered by render and if there is a leak
it will be quickly detected.  Best to keep the pipes away in the first
place.

Kind regards
John Glassford
Huff 'n' Puff Constructions
<a  target="_blank" href="http://www.glassford.com.au/";>http://www.glassford.com.au/</a>
61 2 6927 6027


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Date: 19 Feb 2006 14:43:07 -0600
From: Joyce Coppinger jc10508@...
Subject: GSBN Member List

Name                  State           Country     Affiliation
E-Mail

John Glassford        New South Wales Australia   AUSBALE
john@...

Chris Newton          Queensland      Australia   AUSBALE
chris@...

Bohdan Dorniak        South Australia Australia   AUSBALE
bdco@...

Helen and Per Bernard  Victoria       Australia   AUSBALE
imagine@...

John Zhang             Sydney         Australia
j.zhang@...

Mike Faine             Sydney         Australia
m.faine@...

Frank Thomas          New South Wales Australia
strawbales@...

Evgeny Shirokov                       Belarus
iaebd@...

Herwig Van Zoom                       Belgium
orcaarchi@...

Habib John Gonzalez British Colombia  Canada
habibg@...

Kim Thompson        Nova Scotia       Canada
shipharbour@...

Chris Magwood       Ontario           Canada    OSBBC
cmagwood@...

Rob Tom             Ontario           Canada
ArchiLogic@...

John Straube                          Canada
jfstraube@...

Lars Keller                           Denmark
larskeller@...

Axel Linde                            Deutchland
Zypresse1@...

Barbara Jones                         England    WISE
info@...

Chris "Chug" Tugby                    England    WISE
chug@...

Jakub Wihan                           France
kuba@...

Lorenzo Robles                        France
lorobles55@...

Pascal Thepaut                        France
Pascal.THEPAUT@...

Andre de Bouter                       France    ESBN
forum@...

Dirk Scharmer                         Germany   GSBA
ds@...

Scott Christiansen                    Mongolia
adramon@...

Rene Dalmeijer                        Netherlands
rene.dalmeijer@...

Martin Oehlmann                       Netherlands, France
moehlmann@...

Graeme North         Warkworth        New Zealand
ecodesign@...

Rolf Jacobson                         Norway
rolf@...

Werner Schmidt - Switzerland          Switzerland
atelier_schmidt@...

David Eisenberg      Arizona          USA           DCAT
strawnet@...

Joelee Joyce         Arizona          USA
dawnaz@...

Judy Knox            Arizona          USA
judyknox42@...

Matts Myhrman       Arizona           USA
mattsmyhrman@...

Tony Novelli        Arizona           USA           DCAT
info@...

Bill and Athena Steen     Arizona     USA, Mexico
bsteen@...

David Bainbridge    California        USA
bainbrid@...

Bob Bolles          California        USA
bob@...

Bruce King          California        USA
ecobruce@...

Dan Smith           California        USA
dan@...

John Swearingen     California        USA
johns@...

Marcus Hardwick     California        USA
marcus1@...

Martin Hammer       California        USA
mfhammer@...

Maurice Bennett     California        USA            CASBA
mbenn1035@...

Nehemiah Stone      California        USA
stoneandstraw@...

Tim Owen-Kennedy    California        USA
timok@...

Jeff Ruppert        Colorado          USA            COSBA
jeff@...

Laura Bartels       Colorado          USA
Laura@...

Paul Lacinski       Massachusetts     USA
paul@...

Joyce Coppinger     Nebraska          USA            TheLastStraw, SBAN
thelaststraw@...

Darren Port         New Jersey        USA
ketsie@...

Catherine Wanek     New Mexico        USA
blackrange@...

Derek Roff          New Mexico        USA
derek@...

Danny Buck          New Mexico        USA
fiodanbuck@...

Bill Christensen    Texas             USA
billc_lists@...

Frank Meyer         Texas             USA
thangmaker@...

Sue Murray          Texas             USA
Sue.Murray@...

Ben Obregon         Texas             USA
bobregon@...

Mark Piepkorn       Vermont           USA
mark@...

Chris Stafford      Washington        USA
stafford@...

Kelley Lerner       Washington        USA
klerner@...








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Date: 19 Feb 2006 15:35:38 -0600
From: "Bohdan Dorniak &amp; Co Pty Ltd" bdco@...
Subject: Re: GSBN:Straw Bale  and Plumbing

Hi Martin
Placing high pressure or any sort of plumbing pipes in an outer sleeve is
fine.
Where we do run into a few problems is at bends, so we try for straight runs
Bohdan
Architect
- ----- Original Message -----
From: "Martin Hammer" mfhammer@...
To: "GSBN" GSBN@...
Sent: Monday, February 20, 2006 3:58 AM
Subject: GSBN:Straw Bale and Plumbing


> Greetings GSBN members -
>
> In a recent peer review meeting of the proposed California SB Code, the
> conventional wisdom that plumbing in straw bale walls is a potential
> problem
> was challenged.  Almost all U.S. SB Codes have a requirement that pipes
> for
> plumbing in SB walls be sleeved.  For example: "Water or gas pipes within
> bale walls shall be encased in a continuous pipe sleeve to prevent leakage
> within the wall."  The term "water pipes" is usually understood to include
> supply, drain, waste and vent pipes.
>
> The logic goes that a sleeved pipe (with a presumed outlet outside the
> wall)
> would protect against water intrusion into the bale wall from a leak, or
> from condensation on the surface of the pipe, especially on cold water
> pipes
> or pipes that extend to the exterior in cold air.
>
> The logic against such a requirement is that it makes SB builders' lives
> more difficult every time plumbing is installed in a SB wall, for a
> speculated problem that rarely if ever occurs.  If a leak occurs with or
> without a sleeve, one would know about it and would need to open up the
> bale
> wall either way.  If condensation occurs it would cause only minor and
> local
> deterioration at worst (?).  In addition, there is no such code
> requirement,
> practice, or concern (?) for plumbing in wood framed walls, which is
> certainly, though maybe not equally, susceptible to damage from water.
>
> We're considering removing this requirement altogether from the proposed
> California code.  Before doing so, I'm interested to know if anyone has
> any
> ACTUAL experience with such a problem from plumbing in SB walls.  And
> maybe
> Matts M. or David E. could chime in regarding the requirement's origin in
> the Tucson / Pima County Code.
>
> Thanks for any reply.
>
> Martin Hammer
> California
>
> ----
> GSBN is an invitation-only forum of key individuals and representatives of
> regional straw construction organizations. The costs of operating this
> list are underwritten by The Last Straw Journal in exchange for use of the
> GSBN as an advisory board and technical editing arm.
>
> For instructions on joining, leaving, or otherwise using the GSBN list,
> send email to GSBN@...HELP in the SUBJECT line.
> ----
>



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Date: 19 Feb 2006 16:16:37 -0600
From: laura@...
Subject: RE: GSBN:Straw Bale  and Plumbing


First,
Greetings to all of you, as I have been a very quiet member since
joining the list. I am, however, very appreciative of having being able
to "listen" even though I've had little time to speak up.My hope is to
change that..

and now to respond to Martin,

In this region, I most often see only hose bib supply lines going
through bale walls, and then mostly through a waterproofed and
insulated box out or sleeve, and with our risk here of even the most
frost-free hose bib still at risk, always sloped to the exterior. I
have not seen a problem with those.
In two instances I have seen other plumbing complications. In one, the
plumber brought a Wirsbo supply line in from the attic space down the
bale wall for the kitchen sink. It was retrofitted with a stud channel
with a waterproofing membrane as it was already installed and could not
be sleeved. During plaster prep, it took a staple without anyone
knowing. When the line was pressurized, the leak was discovered and had
done damage under finished plaster. So, the fact that staples and pins
are used in plaster prep often may be something to consider in our
situations unlike the more controlled length of drywall screws in stud
framing.
In another, the builder ran supply lines through the floor and into the
cabinet in an upstairs bathroom. A connection had a very slow leak
which was just below the cabinet and soaked the entire wall in the
kitchen wall below before the source of the small flies in the bathroom
led them to the problem. The kitchen wall plaster skin was removed from
the interior, the wet bales removed, the exterior stucco reinforced
with more material from the backside (the argument being that the ext.
skin now was not embedded in the bales, and needed to be more
structural unto itself) and new bales installed.
Best to all,

Laura Bartels
Carbondale. Colorado




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Date: 19 Feb 2006 18:06:10 -0600
From: jeff@...
Subject: Re: GSBN:Straw Bale  and Plumbing

Martin,

Our experience has been to use sleeves, however, I do not see anything
out of the ordinary by removing this requirement from the Guidelines.
The regular codes do not have this type of requirement for wood.  There
is usually localized damage in highly plumbed areas from both pipes and
humidity.  Over a long period of time, I think the level of damage would
be comparable.  There is already a level of expected minor localized
degredation within a wood wall over periods of years, in certain
locations more than others.

This type of regulation seems to be more along the lines of how much
minor risk do all of us take as homeowners, bale walls or not.  I would
rather leave this to each owner, as is the case in the codes for other
types of celullose-based wall structures.  There is nothing stopping
anyone building a wood structure from doing the same thing to mitigate
the same type of damage from such an event.  I don't think we need it
codified.

This is a great detail for inclusion in many straw bale construction
books as "best-practice."  It makes sense for it to be part of the
greater conciousness of bale construction, but not codified.



Jeff Ruppert, P.E.
Principal

Odisea LLC
Ecological Building, Engineering and Consulting

Front Range Office 		West Slope Office
1731 15th St. #105		1022 Main St.
Boulder, CO  80302		Carbondale, CO 81623
303.443.4335			970.948.5744
303.443.4355 f			1.866.795.6699 f
jeff@...
www.odiseanet.com



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Date: 19 Feb 2006 19:55:42 -0600
From: Joyce Coppinger jc10508@...
Subject: FW: Project assistance

Reply is you are interested in helping.

Joyce
- -------
Joyce Coppinger, Managing Editor
The Last Straw journal
GPFS/TLS, PO Box 22706, Lincoln NE 68542-2706 USA
402.483.5135, fax 402.483.5161
thelaststraw@...
www.thelaststraw.org

- ----------
From: "Cink, Dr. James" jim.cink@...
Date: Fri, 10 Feb 2006 12:49:14 -0600
To: TLSEditor@...
Subject: Project assistance

I am the product development manager for Whitmire Micro-Gen in charge of R&amp;D
efforts for creating termite and selected general insect products used by
pest management professionals around the world.  I have been asked to
prepare a presentation on new and novel construction practices in the U.S.
and would like to include a section on homes constructed of straw,
specifically how they are constructed from the ground up.  The focus of the
presentation is how to identify the type of construction; inspection
techniques needed based on construction type; how to diagnose possible
insect pest infestations (e.g., IR camera, microwave insect detectors,
acoustic emissions detectors, moisture meters); and determine how and where
pest control treatments may be applied so that they do not harm the building
or construction elements used at that site.  The primary audience this
presentation will be delivered to is pest management technicians, and owners
of those businesses.

For this project I am seeking pictures to be included in a Powerpoint
presentation to show how various types of homes are built (e.g., log, steel
frame, straw, concrete, adobe, etc.) from the foundation up.  This includes
any special information that is important as to how water and electrical
lines are placed within walls, heating and cooling distribution and any
special considerations for the installation of heating systems, doors,
windows and the roof.  I am contacting your company to see if you would be
able to provide a series of pictures that describe the building process of a
straw home.  An important area to cover is the finished look of the home and
that without prior knowledge of the construction materials used are there
ways to know if it is a straw house. Rest assured that any pictures used in
the presentation will be fully acknowledged and credit given to the supplier
of those photos.  High resolution pictures are requested in order to
maintain the quality of the presentation and material presented.  A copy of
the finished slides will be provided to anyone that contributed to
presentation.

If you have any questions, please contact me at one of the numbers listed
below or by return email.  I wish to say thank you in advance for any and
all assistance you can provide in helping create this new and interesting
slide presentation.  If you would like to review information about Whitmire
Micro-Gen please visit our web site at www.wmmg.com.



Sincerely,





James H. Cink, Ph.D.

Product Development Manager - Termite

Reseach and Development

Whitmire Micro-Gen

3568 Tree Court Industrial Blvd.

St. Louis, MO 63122



Office: (636) 861-4254

Cell:    (314) 409-1543

Fax:    (636) 225-3739

Email:  jim.cink@...







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