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Re: GSBN:Loadbearing sb with moisture damage




On Mar 9, 2006, at 10:24 AM, John Swearingen wrote:

Hmmmmm.....
Beel sayed....

..... On the back side of those uprights we are attaching a buck
that is
built out of 2x6s  configured like a picture/photo frame so that the
flat/wider side is facing forward.....  With this configuration a
sill can
be attached to the buck and uprights....
....and for that matter can be replicated above the window so as to
achieve
what David pointed out..... it becomes very easy to create the
equivalent of
a pan either using peel and stick type membranes/metal or what have
you.

So, what you mean is you can use the buck/frame to attach a sill
that's
independent of the window itself as well as the bales, and that the
buck/frame gives you a good attachment surface?  And what did David
say
about "above the window"?

John "Peeling Schtick" Swearingen

Geez is that what I said?  Well I think I would say it a little
different.  The vertical 2xs are a great place to mount the buck/
frame in a very secure way.  Additionally it allows one to move the
buck up and down in terms of placement without being confined/limited
by the bales.  Once the buck is attached to the backs of these
vertical pieces then bales can be placed below/above with little
difficulty or hassle.  Ok, that said, by configuring the buck/frame
in a photo/picture frame orientation with the widest dimension of the
wood facing outward, one has a marvelously spacious surface to work
with when plastering/finishing around the window itself.  In our
case, the sill or sill base is then attached to both the buck/frame
and the vertical 2xs.  I say sill base in that I have never used this
wood piece as the final sill preferring to either pour concrete on
top or use stone cut to size.  The same configuration can be repeated
above the window, but with the wood being surfaced with something
other than the concrete/stone approach used for the sill.  Typically
we use whatever is being used on the roof of the building.

And having said all that I suppose it is even more confusing.

Bill

Athena & Bill Steen
The Canelo Project
HC1 Box 324
Canelo/Elgin, AZ 85611
absteen@...
www.caneloproject.com


John Swearingen
 SKILLFUL MEANS
design and construction
 HYPERLINK "www.skillful-means.com"www.skillful-means.com
<www.skillful-means.com>


-----Original Message-----
From: GSBN [HYPERLINK
"<a  target="_blank" href="mailto:GSBN@..."mailto:GSBN@...";>mailto:GSBN@..."mailto:GSBN@...
<<a  target="_blank" href="mailto:GSBN@...";>mailto:GSBN@...> ] On Behalf Of Athena &amp; Bill
Steen
Sent: Thursday, March 09, 2006 8:17 AM
To: GSBN
Subject: Re: GSBN:Loadbearing sb with moisture damage


..... On the back side of those uprights we are attaching a buck
that is
built out of 2x6s  configured like a picture/photo frame so that the
flat/wider side is facing forward.  This sets the window slightly
back from
the outer surface of the wall where it is a little more protected.
With
this configuration a sill can be attached to the buck and uprights
and for
that matter can be replicated above the window so as to achieve
what David
pointed out..... it becomes very easy to create the equivalent of a
pan
either using peel and stick type membranes/metal or what have you.
Another
advantage to this approach is that it allows any number of different
approaches for final detailing/plastering around the window.

Bill

Athena &amp; Bill Steen
The Canelo Project
HC1 Box 324
Canelo/Elgin, AZ 85611
absteen@...
HYPERLINK "www.caneloproject.com"www.caneloproject.com
<www.caneloproject.com>


On Mar 8, 2006, at 11:51 AM, strawnet@...:

Chris,

All good points and although we may have some differences of opinion
on some bits, I think you bring up both some good solutions and some
issues for more discussion. It's worth thinking about this issue of
pans from a conceptual standpoint as much as from the practical
issues
you raise. This is not always the case - since concepts and realities
are often at odds with each other, but I say this because what I
think
is most essential here is that we are thinking about devising ways to
accomplish multiple goals in the most effective and hopefully,
environmentally responsible, efficient and aesthetic ways we can.

What we are trying to do is to ensure the longevity of the walls
around openings by minimizing the ability of water to get in and
maximizing the ability of water that does get in to get out. We have
to consider things like thermal bridging and condensation, freeze-
thaw
cycles, capilarity, sequencing of installation, ease of ensuring
reasonable dependability both in installation and in service over
time, including maintainability. And, I think we should assume
certain
things. Windows leak. Plasters and wood can crack and do move and
what
I like to see is
thinking that goes beyond (or behind or under) the first layer of
protection for when that happens. Like your plaster kerfs that
minimize
the problem by design and detailing.

While I don't want to scare people about these things, I also have
heard too many people dismiss them as not being such a big problem.
Dealing with a few buildings and the unhappy and unfortunate
owners of
them when they do fail has just reinforced in me the need to pay
attention to them all the way through, from initial design to the
final detailing.

David

-----Original Message-----
From: Chris Magwood cmagwood@...
To: GSBN GSBN@...
Sent: Wed, 8 Mar 2006 12:42:07 -0500
Subject: Re: GSBN:Loadbearing sb with moisture damage

 David and all,

This is great to be addressing these issues!

I think that there is some hope that the CASBA details will end up
including several good strategies for making good window and door
openings. I don't think there's just one way to do it well, because
the kind of window, its materials, the trim scenario and the position
on the wall all have an affect on the chosen strategy.

I agree with David that relying on caulking is a bad idea. However,
caulkings and/or glues do tend to last a very long time when the
materials they are joining are making fairly full, flush contact with
one another and are not exposed to UV or weather. In the window
cutting arrangement, we had a very flat, straight edge on the cut
plaster, and made the wooden frame inserts so they fit tightly
against
that cut plaster. The caulking that seals the two is then behind the
wooden window trim, which is in turn caulked to the face of the
plaster. Water must get behind the trim, and then through the tight,
caulked joint. I felt very confident with this (although I've never
repeated it exactly).

I'm not a big fan of pan-style flashings under the windows. Those
pans
always have seams or lumpy bits where they are folded, and these
always seem vulnerable to me. Also, if they are to effectively allow
water to leave the wall, there must be a gap between the underside of
the wooden sill and the pan. If there isn't, then water is just going
to sit under the wood and keep it soaked. If water can run free of
this pan, that means that there is also a gap for air to infiltrate
under the window. If the pan is properly bent and sealed, this air
won't make it right into the home, but it will make the window base
very cold (at least here in Canuckland) and very prone to
condensation
on the inside. Also, water under this sill will be prone to freezing.

My preferred method (submitted to the CASBA details) involves a
window
buck in which the bottom sill is made from stock 2-inches wider than
the sides, and is notched into the uprights, bevelled and has a drip
kerf cut into the bottom. By notching the sill into the uprights (and
then gluing the joint), water cannot go through or around the sill,
but follows the bevel away from the wall and rolls free at the kerf.
This means that my "rough" buck sill is actually visible, so I use
nice wood stock that is treated on all sides for moisture resistance
(or some owners metal clad this sill). Lately I've taken to making
this an intentional feature of the home, and have been using thick
slab hardwood for these sills, making them heavy and distinctive in
the wall.

Another thing that I've been doing lately is cutting plaster kerfs
into my frames (or anywhere where plaster will meet wood). A decently
deep kerf will mean that the plaster is not just resting on the
surface of the wood (where it's pretty easy for air and water to get
behind) but is filling the kerf and slowing (not stopping, since the
plaster will shrink a bit) this tendency.

Chris
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Journal in exchange for use of the GSBN as an advisory board and
technical editing arm.

For instructions on joining, leaving, or otherwise using the GSBN
list, send email to GSBN@...HELP in the
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representatives of
regional straw construction organizations. The costs of operating
this list
are underwritten by The Last Straw Journal in exchange for use of
the GSBN
as an advisory board and technical editing arm.

For instructions on joining, leaving, or otherwise using the GSBN
list, send
email to GSBN@...HELP in the SUBJECT line.
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For instructions on joining, leaving, or otherwise using the GSBN
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