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GSBN: Digest for 3/10/06



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-> Re: GSBN:Loadbearing sb with moisture damage
     by Athena & Bill Steen absteen@...
-> French SB gathering (forum) 6-7 mai
     by "Andre de Bouter" forum@...
-> RE: GSBN:Loadbearing sb with moisture damage
     by jswearingen@...
-> Re: GSBN:Loadbearing sb with moisture damage
     by Athena & Bill Steen absteen@...
-> Planning Themes for TLS in 2007
     by Joyce Coppinger jc10508@...


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Date: 10 Mar 2006 10:06:32 -0600
From: Athena & Bill Steen absteen@...
Subject: Re: GSBN:Loadbearing sb with moisture damage


On Mar 9, 2006, at 10:24 AM, John Swearingen wrote:

> Hmmmmm.....
> Beel sayed....
>
> ..... On the back side of those uprights we are attaching a buck
> that is
> built out of 2x6s  configured like a picture/photo frame so that the
> flat/wider side is facing forward.....  With this configuration a
> sill can
> be attached to the buck and uprights....
> ....and for that matter can be replicated above the window so as to
> achieve
> what David pointed out..... it becomes very easy to create the
> equivalent of
> a pan either using peel and stick type membranes/metal or what have
> you.
>
> So, what you mean is you can use the buck/frame to attach a sill
> that's
> independent of the window itself as well as the bales, and that the
> buck/frame gives you a good attachment surface?  And what did David
> say
> about "above the window"?
>
> John "Peeling Schtick" Swearingen

Geez is that what I said?  Well I think I would say it a little
different.  The vertical 2xs are a great place to mount the buck/
frame in a very secure way.  Additionally it allows one to move the
buck up and down in terms of placement without being confined/limited
by the bales.  Once the buck is attached to the backs of these
vertical pieces then bales can be placed below/above with little
difficulty or hassle.  Ok, that said, by configuring the buck/frame
in a photo/picture frame orientation with the widest dimension of the
wood facing outward, one has a marvelously spacious surface to work
with when plastering/finishing around the window itself.  In our
case, the sill or sill base is then attached to both the buck/frame
and the vertical 2xs.  I say sill base in that I have never used this
wood piece as the final sill preferring to either pour concrete on
top or use stone cut to size.  The same configuration can be repeated
above the window, but with the wood being surfaced with something
other than the concrete/stone approach used for the sill.  Typically
we use whatever is being used on the roof of the building.

And having said all that I suppose it is even more confusing.

Bill
>
Athena & Bill Steen
The Canelo Project
HC1 Box 324
Canelo/Elgin, AZ 85611
absteen@...
www.caneloproject.com

>
> John Swearingen
>  SKILLFUL MEANS
> design and construction
>  HYPERLINK "www.skillful-means.com"www.skillful-means.com
> <www.skillful-means.com>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: GSBN [HYPERLINK
> "<a  target="_blank" href="mailto:GSBN@..."mailto:GSBN@...";>mailto:GSBN@..."mailto:GSBN@...
> <<a  target="_blank" href="mailto:GSBN@...";>mailto:GSBN@...> ] On Behalf Of Athena &amp; Bill
> Steen
> Sent: Thursday, March 09, 2006 8:17 AM
> To: GSBN
> Subject: Re: GSBN:Loadbearing sb with moisture damage
>
>
> ..... On the back side of those uprights we are attaching a buck
> that is
> built out of 2x6s  configured like a picture/photo frame so that the
> flat/wider side is facing forward.  This sets the window slightly
> back from
> the outer surface of the wall where it is a little more protected.
> With
> this configuration a sill can be attached to the buck and uprights
> and for
> that matter can be replicated above the window so as to achieve
> what David
> pointed out..... it becomes very easy to create the equivalent of a
> pan
> either using peel and stick type membranes/metal or what have you.
> Another
> advantage to this approach is that it allows any number of different
> approaches for final detailing/plastering around the window.
>
> Bill
>
> Athena &amp; Bill Steen
> The Canelo Project
> HC1 Box 324
> Canelo/Elgin, AZ 85611
> absteen@...
> HYPERLINK "www.caneloproject.com"www.caneloproject.com
> <www.caneloproject.com>
>
>
> On Mar 8, 2006, at 11:51 AM, strawnet@...:
>
>> Chris,
>>
>> All good points and although we may have some differences of opinion
>> on some bits, I think you bring up both some good solutions and some
>> issues for more discussion. It's worth thinking about this issue of
>> pans from a conceptual standpoint as much as from the practical
>> issues
>> you raise. This is not always the case - since concepts and realities
>> are often at odds with each other, but I say this because what I
>> think
>> is most essential here is that we are thinking about devising ways to
>> accomplish multiple goals in the most effective and hopefully,
>> environmentally responsible, efficient and aesthetic ways we can.
>>
>> What we are trying to do is to ensure the longevity of the walls
>> around openings by minimizing the ability of water to get in and
>> maximizing the ability of water that does get in to get out. We have
>> to consider things like thermal bridging and condensation, freeze-
>> thaw
>> cycles, capilarity, sequencing of installation, ease of ensuring
>> reasonable dependability both in installation and in service over
>> time, including maintainability. And, I think we should assume
>> certain
>> things. Windows leak. Plasters and wood can crack and do move and
>> what
>> I like to see is
>> thinking that goes beyond (or behind or under) the first layer of
>> protection for when that happens. Like your plaster kerfs that
>> minimize
>> the problem by design and detailing.
>>
>> While I don't want to scare people about these things, I also have
>> heard too many people dismiss them as not being such a big problem.
>> Dealing with a few buildings and the unhappy and unfortunate
>> owners of
>> them when they do fail has just reinforced in me the need to pay
>> attention to them all the way through, from initial design to the
>> final detailing.
>>
>> David
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Chris Magwood cmagwood@...
>> To: GSBN GSBN@...
>> Sent: Wed, 8 Mar 2006 12:42:07 -0500
>> Subject: Re: GSBN:Loadbearing sb with moisture damage
>>
>>  David and all,
>>
>> This is great to be addressing these issues!
>>
>> I think that there is some hope that the CASBA details will end up
>> including several good strategies for making good window and door
>> openings. I don't think there's just one way to do it well, because
>> the kind of window, its materials, the trim scenario and the position
>> on the wall all have an affect on the chosen strategy.
>>
>> I agree with David that relying on caulking is a bad idea. However,
>> caulkings and/or glues do tend to last a very long time when the
>> materials they are joining are making fairly full, flush contact with
>> one another and are not exposed to UV or weather. In the window
>> cutting arrangement, we had a very flat, straight edge on the cut
>> plaster, and made the wooden frame inserts so they fit tightly
>> against
>> that cut plaster. The caulking that seals the two is then behind the
>> wooden window trim, which is in turn caulked to the face of the
>> plaster. Water must get behind the trim, and then through the tight,
>> caulked joint. I felt very confident with this (although I've never
>> repeated it exactly).
>>
>> I'm not a big fan of pan-style flashings under the windows. Those
>> pans
>> always have seams or lumpy bits where they are folded, and these
>> always seem vulnerable to me. Also, if they are to effectively allow
>> water to leave the wall, there must be a gap between the underside of
>> the wooden sill and the pan. If there isn't, then water is just going
>> to sit under the wood and keep it soaked. If water can run free of
>> this pan, that means that there is also a gap for air to infiltrate
>> under the window. If the pan is properly bent and sealed, this air
>> won't make it right into the home, but it will make the window base
>> very cold (at least here in Canuckland) and very prone to
>> condensation
>> on the inside. Also, water under this sill will be prone to freezing.
>>
>> My preferred method (submitted to the CASBA details) involves a
>> window
>> buck in which the bottom sill is made from stock 2-inches wider than
>> the sides, and is notched into the uprights, bevelled and has a drip
>> kerf cut into the bottom. By notching the sill into the uprights (and
>> then gluing the joint), water cannot go through or around the sill,
>> but follows the bevel away from the wall and rolls free at the kerf.
>> This means that my "rough" buck sill is actually visible, so I use
>> nice wood stock that is treated on all sides for moisture resistance
>> (or some owners metal clad this sill). Lately I've taken to making
>> this an intentional feature of the home, and have been using thick
>> slab hardwood for these sills, making them heavy and distinctive in
>> the wall.
>>
>> Another thing that I've been doing lately is cutting plaster kerfs
>> into my frames (or anywhere where plaster will meet wood). A decently
>> deep kerf will mean that the plaster is not just resting on the
>> surface of the wood (where it's pretty easy for air and water to get
>> behind) but is filling the kerf and slowing (not stopping, since the
>> plaster will shrink a bit) this tendency.
>>
>> Chris
>> ----
>>  GSBN is an invitation-only forum of key individuals and
>> representatives of regional straw construction organizations. The
>> costs of operating this list are underwritten by The Last Straw
>> Journal in exchange for use of the GSBN as an advisory board and
>> technical editing
>> arm.
>>
>>  For instructions on joining, leaving, or otherwise using the GSBN
>> list, send email to GSBN@...HELP in the
>> SUBJECT line. ----
>>
>>
>>
>> ----
>> GSBN is an invitation-only forum of key individuals and
>> representatives of regional straw construction organizations. The
>> costs of operating this list are underwritten by The Last Straw
>> Journal in exchange for use of the GSBN as an advisory board and
>> technical editing arm.
>>
>> For instructions on joining, leaving, or otherwise using the GSBN
>> list, send email to GSBN@...HELP in the
>> SUBJECT line.  ----
>>
>
> ----
> GSBN is an invitation-only forum of key individuals and
> representatives of
> regional straw construction organizations. The costs of operating
> this list
> are underwritten by The Last Straw Journal in exchange for use of
> the GSBN
> as an advisory board and technical editing arm.
>
> For instructions on joining, leaving, or otherwise using the GSBN
> list, send
> email to GSBN@...HELP in the SUBJECT line.
> ----
>
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> GSBN is an invitation-only forum of key individuals and
> representatives of regional straw construction organizations. The
> costs of operating this list are underwritten by The Last Straw
> Journal in exchange for use of the GSBN as an advisory board and
> technical editing arm.
>
> For instructions on joining, leaving, or otherwise using the GSBN
> list, send email to GSBN@...HELP in the
> SUBJECT line.
> ----
>



----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 10 Mar 2006 10:34:19 -0600
From: "Andre de Bouter" forum@...
Subject: French SB gathering (forum) 6-7 mai

Hello everyone,

Do we have any members of french speaking countries on this list? (Yes Duncan,
I
had a look at Wikki ;-)... appreciate what I found there).

In France there is a lot of SB activity but no organisation/network at
present.
There was one before but it died because of a lack of active members. This
gathering is my attempt to re-create a french  organisation/network. 'French'
as in 'the country' or as in 'the french speaking part of the world' depending
on who shows up. The french building codes (DTU) are also part of the agenda.

So pass the word.

Bye,
Andr#233# '#160#who put that water in my wine?#160##187# de Bouter


Forum Fran#231#ais Construction en Paille le 6-7 mai en France
(plus de d#233#tails sur www.lamaisonenpaille.com)

Chers constructeurs/trices en paille,

Nous organisons un forum pour r#233#unir les constructeurs en bottes de paille
(professionnels et auto-constructeurs) dans le but de se mieux se
conna#238#tre et
de s'organiser d'avantage. Ce rencontre auras lieu au Base de loisirs du
Lambon, proche de Niort dans les Deux-S#232#vres, un endroit ou tout les
conditions
sont r#233#unit et o#249# on peut s'amuser en famille. Nous l'avons
organis#233# sur une
weekend qui fait un pont (le 8 mai), comme #231#a ceux qui viennent de loin
peuvent
#233#galement y participer.
La participation au forum est gratuit et nous faisons notre mieux de vous
proposer des repas et herbergement #224# prix modestes (ces prix restent
encore #224#
clarifier).
Pr#233#-inscrirvez vous (sans engagement de votre part) pour #234#tre s#251#r
que vous serez
les premiers #224# recevoir les bulletins d'inscription car nous sont
oublig#233#es de
limiter le nombre de participants #224# 80.

J'#232#spere que vous serez avec nous.

Envoyez vos pr#233#-inscriptions #224# Kim Delagarde :
kim.delagarde@...
Et vos remarques #224# moi, accueil@...


Paillement votre,

Andr#233# de Bouter

La Maison en Paille
www.lamaisonenpaille.com
05 45 66 27 68


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 10 Mar 2006 11:20:35 -0600
From: jswearingen@...
Subject: RE: GSBN:Loadbearing sb with moisture damage

Beeel sayd:
Geez is that what I said?  <snip> And having said all that I suppose it is
even more confusing.
Bill


Yeah, that's what I thought you said.  We do basicly the same, with posts at
either side of the window opening.  As far as waterproofing goes, though,
the devil is in the details, and having a double sill seems like a good
idea.  

The idea of making a buck like a picture frame, flat, is intersting.  What
happens on the inside?  What do you attach lath to?  Does your waterproof
membrane stop at the front face? How do you insulate next to the jamb?

John "Say What?" Swearingen


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Date: 10 Mar 2006 11:49:58 -0600
From: Athena &amp; Bill Steen absteen@...
Subject: Re: GSBN:Loadbearing sb with moisture damage

>
>
> The idea of making a buck like a picture frame, flat, is
> intersting.  What
> happens on the inside?  What do you attach lath to?  Does your
> waterproof
> membrane stop at the front face? How do you insulate next to the jamb?
>
> John "Say What?" Swearingen

Well, without committing myself, I'll say that there are lots of
options when it comes to the inside.  I say that because after having
shown/taught this method to a lot of folks over the past several
years, we've seen a variety of approaches.  For example, the most
different method I've seen is one guy who framed out a bevel from the
edge of the window back to the bales and filled the cavity with
insulation.  That's not me, but thought I oughta mention it.  Others
have attached rigid insulation to the back of the buck and then lath/
plaster over it.  Wood molding, tiles, copper, I guess it's kind of a
what do you have/like affair.  In our mud-happy approach we tend to
just throw on a bunch of our heavy straw and clay plaster, shaping it
in a variety of ways that includes beveling, curving, etc.  On the
outside it seems the most sensible to keep the waterproofing/papering
that happens above the sill/pan area limited to the wood buck/
vertical 2xs and not have it extend out over the bales.  If metal
lath is used it can easily extend from the wood framing out to the
straw.  In short, I guess what I'm saying is that there is enough
room to finish, waterproof and/or insulate in a numerous ways.

B...



Athena &amp; Bill Steen
The Canelo Project
HC1 Box 324
Canelo/Elgin, AZ 85611
absteen@...
www.caneloproject.com


On Mar 10, 2006, at 10:09 AM, John Swearingen wrote:
>
> ----
> GSBN is an invitation-only forum of key individuals and
> representatives of regional straw construction organizations. The
> costs of operating this list are underwritten by The Last Straw
> Journal in exchange for use of the GSBN as an advisory board and
> technical editing arm.
>
> For instructions on joining, leaving, or otherwise using the GSBN
> list, send email to GSBN@...HELP in the
> SUBJECT line.
> ----
>



----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 10 Mar 2006 12:24:14 -0600
From: Joyce Coppinger jc10508@...
Subject: Planning Themes for TLS in 2007

Hello all,

Below is the schedule for Themes and Deadlines for The Last Straw journal
for the remainder of 2006 and the beginning of 2007. If you have articles,
project pages, tech tips, or any items you would like to share, please do
so. The submission guidelines are included on the TLS web site
www.thelaststraw.org (click on Submission Guidelines at the bottom of the
Home page).

After reading through the messages of the load-bearing thread, this might be
a good theme.  Retrofitting would be a good (and possibly difficult to
explain) topic as TLS receives many questions about how to decide if this is
a good solution and, if so, how to do it. Questions about sb greenhouses
come up regularly, too. An issue about education and training is probably
overdue. In many places around the world, straw-bale buildings are sided
with wood and materials other than plasters or stuccos - we might explore
this as a theme. And with the growing number of wineries (in the USA),
there's a growing interest in using straw bales for cold storage. I've added
water and waste management (including handling humidity) to the theme
list...it's something that people need to know more about.

There are lots of new products on the market and we try to share information
about them through the Product Review section of TLS. Let's hear from you
about anything new you're using be it products, materials, tools.

And, please send in those Tech Tips to help owner/builders as well as other
professionals learn about ways in which to make the design and construction
simpler, easier, more efficient, better.

We also like to feature those of you who have completed projects of all
types through the Project Pages section of TLS. There is a form on the web
site within the Submission Guidelines document that will give you an idea of
what we are looking for. We can feature two or three projects with
photographs and descriptive captions on one page, or we do one-page  for one
project with description and photographs. It's an opportunity for you to do
a bit of free marketing!

I would really appreciate your input, insights and ideas about the themes
and future content/topics, so please let me hear from you. Thanks!

Joyce
- -------
Joyce Coppinger, Managing Editor
The Last Straw journal
GPFS/TLS, PO Box 22706, Lincoln NE 68542-2706 USA
402.483.5135, fax 402.483.5161
thelaststraw@...
www.thelaststraw.org


#54/Summer 2006
Commercial &amp; Industrial Buildings of Straw; Codes and Permitting Worldwide
Strawbale is emerging as a choice for all types of commercial and
industrial. And Martin Hammer as gathered information from around the world
to share on codes and permitting for strawbale.
Deadline - March 15
Published - June

#55/Fall 2006
Strawbale Details Details Details...and More Natural Materials and Building
Details on joining walls (interior and exterior), flooring over basement,
box column construction method, and more...plus more natural materials and
building
Deadline - June 15
Published - September

Resource Guide 2007
Updates and additions of sources and resources
Deadline - September 15 *Note Deadline Date Change
Published - December *Note Publication Date Change

#56/Winter 2006
Ecovillages, Communities and Cohousing
Ecovillages, communities, cohousing built with strawbale and natural
building.
Deadline - September 15
Published - December

#57/Spring 2007
Now and Then - How things have changed in strawbale and natural building
since the early 1990s
Deadline - December 15
Published - March

#58/Summer 2007
Water, Water Everywhere...Handling water and waste management in strawbale
buildings. Drinking water, humidity, waste water, waste management, and
more.
Deadline - March 15
Published - June


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