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GSBN: Digest for 3/18/06



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-> Re: GSBN:Data on Living Roofs
     by Rene Dalmeijer rene.dalmeijer@...
-> Re: GSBN:RE - "external pinning" and member from Spain
     by "moehlmann" moehlmann@...
-> re: Data on Living Roofs
     by archilogic@...


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Date: 18 Mar 2006 04:20:48 -0600
From: Rene Dalmeijer rene.dalmeijer@...
Subject: Re: GSBN:Data on Living Roofs

John an all,

Giving hard data on living roofs is very difficult because there are so 
many variables. Basically what a living roof will do is add mass ie 
cuase a phase shift. Which means they are the most effective in 
climates with big dinural temperature swings. Besides this the living 
mass roots etc add a bit extra insulation.

The type of roof I have recently made has very little mass only 
40kg/m^2 thus the phase shift effect is marginal but again significant 
when compared too the rest of the roof membrane weight which is only 
40kg everything else. The fact that the roof is covered with plant mass 
does improve the thermal performance somewhat because a bigger layer of 
stationary air is captured this gets better as the roof matures as more 
root and plant mass accumulates. In its mature state the roof I made 
more then 50% is pure plant mass. A downside to this effect though is 
that when you need this effect most ie blistery weather the green roofs 
thermal performance is at its worst. So besides the green roof you also 
need a lot of insulation. I use the same amount as I would use without 
a greenroof.

Due to the huge amount of variables I am not prepared to give any 
numbers the only indication I can give is that the added mass should 
give you a phase shift which should come up in a dynamic simulation.

The reasons I use a green roof:

It adds more green to heavely developed areas.
It buffers rainflow ie resulting in a lower runoff spike after rainfall 
therefore lessening pollution in surface water. Actually this is 
significant a high percentage of rain never leaves a green roof.
It gives a flat roof membrane a longer life
It improves the interior climate by adding mass to the roof.
Last but not least is simply looks better.


Rene
On Mar 17, 2006, at 22:17, Andre de Bouter wrote:

> Michel Bergeron in Quebec also might be of help.
> His 'pen pal'(Serious StrawBale) Paul Lacinski should be able to track 
> him down.
>
> bye,
> Andre
>
> Selon Chris Stafford Stafford@...:
>
>> John,
>> I don't have your answer, but can give a couple of leads where you may
>> find out about the thermal qualities of green roofs.
>> Patrick Carey, pkc@...,  is leading green roof expert in Seattle
>> Chapter of NW EcoBuilding Guild. Another is a landscape contractor 
>> that
>> has been doing many commercial buildings in downtown Portland, Oregon.
>> I don't have their name but Carey will, if you can't find anything on
>> web.
>> Good luck,
>> Chris
>>
>> Christopher Stafford Architects, Inc.
>> 1044 Water Street, #326
>> Port Townsend, WA 98368
>> 360.379.8541
>> www.building-green.net
>>
>> On Mar 17, 2006, at 10:05 AM, John Swearingen wrote:
>>
>>> Hi,
>>>
>>> Does anyone know of some hard data on the thermal qualities of living
>>> roofs.
>>> I've done some preliminary energy modeling, in Energy 10, and come 
>>> out
>>> with
>>> very little difference.  I presume that's because the program can't
>>> account
>>> for the shading of plants, evaporative cooling effects of moist soil,
>>> and
>>> perhaps the ability of the earth to hold heat, then release it to the
>>> night
>>> sky.  Is there some real data on this?
>>>
>>> John
>>>
>>> John Swearingen
>>>  SKILLFUL MEANS
>>> design and construction
>>>  HYPERLINK "<a  target="_blank" href="http://www.skillful-means.com/"www.skillful-means.com";>http://www.skillful-means.com/"www.skillful-means.com</a>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
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>>> GSBN is an invitation-only forum of key individuals and
>>> representatives of regional straw construction organizations. The
>>> costs of operating this list are underwritten by The Last Straw
>>> Journal in exchange for use of the GSBN as an advisory board and
>>> technical editing arm.
>>>
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>>>
>>
>> ----
>> GSBN is an invitation-only forum of key individuals and 
>> representatives of
>> regional straw construction organizations. The costs of operating 
>> this list
>> are underwritten by The Last Straw Journal in exchange for use of the 
>> GSBN as
>> an advisory board and technical editing arm.
>>
>> For instructions on joining, leaving, or otherwise using the GSBN 
>> list, send
>> email to GSBN@...HELP in the SUBJECT line.
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>>
>
>
> ----
> GSBN is an invitation-only forum of key individuals and 
> representatives of regional straw construction organizations. The 
> costs of operating this list are underwritten by The Last Straw 
> Journal in exchange for use of the GSBN as an advisory board and 
> technical editing arm.
>
> For instructions on joining, leaving, or otherwise using the GSBN 
> list, send email to GSBN@...HELP in the 
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Date: 18 Mar 2006 07:04:27 -0600
From: "moehlmann" moehlmann@...
Subject: Re: GSBN:RE - "external pinning" and member from Spain

Yeah for Nikki and Maren,

Martin Oehlmann

- ----- Original Message ----- 
From: "CatherineWanek" CatherineW@...
To: "GSBN" GSBN@...
Sent: Wednesday, March 15, 2006 9:15 PM
Subject: GSBN:RE - "external pinning" and member from Spain


Dear All --

Many of you met Rikki Nitzkin at the 2004 ISBBC
in Denmark.  For those that don't know her, she
from the U.S., but living in Spain.  She is at
the center of the Spanish strawbale
network.  They have organized a Spanish language
list-serve, and are now working on a strawbale book in Spanish.

I notice that we have no representative from
Spain -- so I'd like to nominate Rikki for
membership in the GSBN.  She could be an
invaluable member, translating and sharing with
the Spanish-speaking strawbale network.

Also, I am forwarding a request from her below:
- -Catherine Wanek

>From: "Rikki  Nitzkin" rikkinitzkin@...
>To: blackrange@...
>Subject: Send Fotos
>Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2006 17:12:07 +0100
>
>Could you please re-send the following message
>to the US strawbale listserve (I am not a member)?
>
>Hello all,
>I am currently finishing up a book in Spanish about Strawbale Building.
>
>I am interested in including information on
>"external pinning" techniques-which are poorly
>represented in most of the SB books.  If anyone
>has good photos, articles, or advice I would
>appreciate it if you would send me some!
>
>Sincerely,
>Rikki Nitzkin
>Aulas, Lleida (Spain)
>Spanish Strawbale Network
><<a  target="_blank" href="mailto:rikkinitzkin@earthlink.net";>mailto:rikkinitzkin@...>rikkinitzkin@...(Personal)
><<a  target="_blank" href="mailto:casasdepaja@yahoo.es";>mailto:casasdepaja@...>casasdepaja@...(Network business)
>(0034) 657 33 51 62
>www.casasdepaja.com
>"We Have the Right and Responsability to Create the World we Want to Live
in"
>
>My mailing address is:
>Rikki Nitzkin
>Aulas
>Aren 22583
>Huesca
>Spain


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GSBN is an invitation-only forum of key individuals and representatives of
regional straw construction organizations. The costs of operating this list
are underwritten by The Last Straw Journal in exchange for use of the GSBN
as an advisory board and technical editing arm.

For instructions on joining, leaving, or otherwise using the GSBN list, send
email to GSBN@...HELP in the SUBJECT line.
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Date: 18 Mar 2006 12:21:35 -0600
From: archilogic@...
Subject: re: Data on Living Roofs

On Sat, 18 Mar 2006 00:22:03 -0500, GSBN GSBN@...
wrote:

> On Mar 17, 2006, at 10:05 AM, the Skillful Meany wrote:

>> Does anyone know of some hard data on the thermal qualities of living
>> roofs.
>> I've done some preliminary energy modeling, in Energy 10, and come out
>> with very little difference.

>> Is there some real data on this?


Mr. Meany;

In y2k, Dr. Karen Liu installed a living roof (she called it a Green Roof)
on half of a roof on a building at the Institute for Research in
Construction (IRC) on the grounds of the National Research Council (NRC)
here in Ottawa and then monitored the two roofs for thermal data and water
storage &amp; runoff data for a number of years.

The first year, I think that there was minimal if any vegetation, just the
thin (100 or 150 mm ?) growing medium (not  straw). Subsequent years there
was a vegetative cover. I saw it the second year (grass)on a private tour.
The first year I think all she had were some widely-spaced sedums.

And as is the habit of research doctors, she published the data.
The link to one of her reports is in

- -->the LINKS section at SB-r-us
- ---> MATERIALS AND METHODS folder
- ----> GREEN ROOFS sub-folder

There's a bunch of stuff in that folder that includes some links to
EuroSites that Chug (and others ?) put up. There may be more "real data"
in those as well.

The bottom (energy)line from Karen's monitoring is that green roofs could
reduce the daily space cooling energy load by an average of ~75% due to
reducing heat gain ... but it doesn't do much of anything to reduce heat
loss.

How real is Karen's data ?
It's Canadian (as in Ottawa climate). Eh ?

For the parts of Poppyland where the landscape gets so parched that it
jumps up and bites y'all in the arse with hell-fires and such on a regular
basis, I think that you'd be looking at the thermal benefits of just the
growing medium since I doubt that you'd be up on your roofs watering the
vegetation to keep it lush and green during periods of drought.

The non-thermal benefit may be that the growing medium might provide an
additional layer of fire protection for the waterproofing membrane and
framing below, or in the event of landscape infernos, maybe you flood the
growing medium (from a cistern dedicated to the purpose) in the hope that
that may discourage the roof from burning ?


=== * ===
Rob Tom
Kanata, Ontario, Canada
<ArchiLogic at chaffyahoo dot ca>
(winnow the chaff  from my edress in your reply)

Please visit   <a  target="_blank" href="http://www.mercycorps.org/";>http://www.mercycorps.org/</a>



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