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Re: GSBN:Re: fire test -- your opinions?



But John I guess my question would be how much is it currently
selling for per bag.  If my memory serves me correctly it was a tad
bit on the high side.

Bill

Athena & Bill Steen
The Canelo Project
HC1 Box 324
Canelo/Elgin, AZ 85611
absteen@...
www.caneloproject.com


On Apr 26, 2006, at 5:03 PM, John Swearingen wrote:

You could use Natural Hydraulic Lime, which cures quicker, but
would have
similar enough properties that it would cover other limes. NHL is
much more
predictable in curing and behavior than other limes.  Michel at
Transmineral
USA could advise you on this www.limes.us

John

John Swearingen
 SKILLFUL MEANS
design and construction
 www.skillful-means.com


-----Original Message-----
From: GSBN [<a  target="_blank" href="mailto:GSBN@...";>mailto:GSBN@...] On Behalf Of
strawnet@...
Sent: Wednesday, April 26, 2006 4:34 PM
To: GSBN@...
Subject: Re: GSBN:Re: fire test -- your opinions?


I have to say that I love having this forum and that it has never
worked any
better than it's working right now!

So, here are a few questions that perhaps some of you with more
experience
with lime and perhaps with earth might be able to answer...

Given that we are not going to have 12 weeks to cure the finish on
these
panels, is there a likely way that we can do a lime render and have
it stand
up to the test, including the hose stream test since if it fails
that it
fails the test? And do we know anything about how less than
adequately cured
lime render will respond to a couple of hours of intense heat and
then the
thermal shock and erosion of the hose stream test?

Your questions, Barbara, about whether we know enough here to be
using lime
plaster well is one that has been on my mind a lot over the last
few years
as I listen to people who are really struggling to make these
things work
and find themselves redoing jobs and trying to understand what went
wrong.
The risk for the use of lime in such a test, if we are having a
hard time
getting it right on ordinary walls doesn't reassure me that it is a
good
choice here. But maybe I just don't know enough about it and there are
people here who do really know.

And second, I keep thinking about how much clay one would need to
have in
the mix to get anything like at least minimal fired-clay
characteristics in
earthen plaster?

It would be so much easier to make these decisions if we knew that
we had a
back up plan for failure - a way that we could then take what we've
learned
and do it again. I've just been at this long enough to place a very
high
value on the fact that we now, finally have the funding to carry
out tests
that we need, I believe, as much for convincing the insurance folks
and the
building officials that this is a safe and viable building system.
We don't
need to convince ourselves of it although I am certain that we
still have a
great deal to learn...

I suppose some of us have been through the wringer enough times
that we are
a bit cautious. One day soon, it's my hope that it is the newly
wide awake
insurance and reinsurance sector that funds this sort of research
as they
strive to address and survive climate change and peak oil risks...I'm
working on that in a variety of ways but who knows what will unfold
there.

-----Original Message-----
From: Strawbalefutures info@...
To: GSBN@...
Sent: Wed, 26 Apr 2006 23:48:23 +0100
Subject: GSBN:Re: fire test -- your opinions?

  Hi All
Just catching up with this very 'USA' debate. First, though, Fantastic
you've got the funding for it and are putting so much thought and
energy
into getting it right. From my European perspective, I am still a bit
bemused at your insistence on using cement in any shape or form in
buildings
since it is has no positive environmental credentials, is rigid
instead of
flexible, waterproofing instead of weatherproofing, and non-
permeable to
vapour instead of permeable. It is a major contributor to the green
house
gas effect and global warming, uses up 50% of the UK annual
electricity
production to manufacture, does not have a cycle of use that
returns it back
to a harmless natural form and by all accounts also blocks aura's
(for the
spiritual amongst us!). Finally it is a thoroughly modern,
(invented in 1824
and used widely from 1914ish) new and untested material in the
sense of
withstanding the test of time compared to lime that has at least
12,000
years of continuous successful use and clay which has far far longer,
probably as old as the human race itself. As well as only
specifying natural
plasters and renders of either lime or clay we have also pioneered
low-impact foundations that use no cement, and solid floors made
with either
lime or clay. All these designs have already been passed by UK
Building
Regulations. I think you need to beware of limiting your vision to
testing
what you know will pass the test (i.e. lime/cement render, which
has been
thoroughly tested already) instead of making sure you all have the
opportunity to catch up with Europe and enshrine the use of cement
free
renders and plasters in your building codes - but you have to
believe that
our centuries of tradition are valid, of course. There is one other
point to
consider, though, which is that you also need to understand the way
lime
works to use it effectively, because it is not like cement, and
this in
itself may be your own limiting factor - do you know enough about
it to use
and specify it? My vote, in case you hadn't realised by now, would
be for a
feebly hydraulic lime render on one wall and the best clay plaster
you have
on the other. Both will pass the 2 hour test I'm sure but the clay
may or
may not pass the hose test, would be interesting to find out. And
to use
bales flat for one and on edge for the other because hey, why not.
Even
though we pretty much know what will happen. As Chug said, we were
involved
in a fire test with the Building Research Establishment that can't
be given
a BS stamp but never-the-less showed that lime rendered strawbale
walls with
straw laid flat will withstand fire for more than 2 hours - the
walls failed
because of the design of the jig and would probably have withstood
fire for
longer in a real situation. We used feebly hydraulic lime, applied
12 weeks
before the test, to both sides of the wall. I can't wait to find
out what
the final decision will be! Over to you, boys. Barbara Jones


WARNING: Strawbale building can seriously transform your life!

Amazon Nails
Strawbale Building, Training and Consultancy
Hollinroyd Farm
Todmorden
OL14 8RJ

Tel/fax: 00 44 (0)1706 814696
email: info@...
web: www.strawbalefutures.org.uk



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For instructions on joining, leaving, or otherwise using the GSBN
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----
GSBN is an invitation-only forum of key individuals and
representatives of
regional straw construction organizations. The costs of operating
this list
are underwritten by The Last Straw Journal in exchange for use of
the GSBN
as an advisory board and technical editing arm.

For instructions on joining, leaving, or otherwise using the GSBN
list, send
email to GSBN@...HELP in the SUBJECT line.
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----
GSBN is an invitation-only forum of key individuals and
representatives of regional straw construction organizations. The
costs of operating this list are underwritten by The Last Straw
Journal in exchange for use of the GSBN as an advisory board and
technical editing arm.

For instructions on joining, leaving, or otherwise using the GSBN
list, send email to GSBN@...HELP in the
SUBJECT line.
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