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RE: GSBN:Re: fire test -- your opinions?



<x-charset windows-1250>Yes, about $30, but for the purposes of the test, it would be good.
John

John Swearingen
 SKILLFUL MEANS
design and construction
 www.skillful-means.com


-----Original Message-----
From: GSBN [<a  target="_blank" href="mailto:GSBN@...";>mailto:GSBN@...] On Behalf Of Athena &amp; Bill
Steen
Sent: Wednesday, April 26, 2006 8:13 PM
To: GSBN
Subject: Re: GSBN:Re: fire test -- your opinions?


But John I guess my question would be how much is it currently selling for
per bag.  If my memory serves me correctly it was a tad bit on the high
side.

Bill

Athena &amp; Bill Steen
The Canelo Project
HC1 Box 324
Canelo/Elgin, AZ 85611
absteen@...
www.caneloproject.com


On Apr 26, 2006, at 5:03 PM, John Swearingen wrote:

> You could use Natural Hydraulic Lime, which cures quicker, but would 
> have similar enough properties that it would cover other limes. NHL is
> much more
> predictable in curing and behavior than other limes.  Michel at
> Transmineral
> USA could advise you on this www.limes.us
>
> John
>
> John Swearingen
>  SKILLFUL MEANS
> design and construction
>  www.skillful-means.com
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: GSBN [<a  target="_blank" href="mailto:GSBN@...";>mailto:GSBN@...] On Behalf Of 
> strawnet@...
> Sent: Wednesday, April 26, 2006 4:34 PM
> To: GSBN@...
> Subject: Re: GSBN:Re: fire test -- your opinions?
>
>
> I have to say that I love having this forum and that it has never 
> worked any better than it's working right now!
>
> So, here are a few questions that perhaps some of you with more 
> experience with lime and perhaps with earth might be able to answer...
>
> Given that we are not going to have 12 weeks to cure the finish on 
> these panels, is there a likely way that we can do a lime render and 
> have it stand
> up to the test, including the hose stream test since if it fails
> that it
> fails the test? And do we know anything about how less than
> adequately cured
> lime render will respond to a couple of hours of intense heat and
> then the
> thermal shock and erosion of the hose stream test?
>
> Your questions, Barbara, about whether we know enough here to be using 
> lime plaster well is one that has been on my mind a lot over the last
> few years
> as I listen to people who are really struggling to make these
> things work
> and find themselves redoing jobs and trying to understand what went
> wrong.
> The risk for the use of lime in such a test, if we are having a
> hard time
> getting it right on ordinary walls doesn't reassure me that it is a
> good
> choice here. But maybe I just don't know enough about it and there are
> people here who do really know.
>
> And second, I keep thinking about how much clay one would need to have 
> in the mix to get anything like at least minimal fired-clay
> characteristics in
> earthen plaster?
>
> It would be so much easier to make these decisions if we knew that we 
> had a back up plan for failure - a way that we could then take what 
> we've learned
> and do it again. I've just been at this long enough to place a very
> high
> value on the fact that we now, finally have the funding to carry
> out tests
> that we need, I believe, as much for convincing the insurance folks
> and the
> building officials that this is a safe and viable building system.
> We don't
> need to convince ourselves of it although I am certain that we
> still have a
> great deal to learn...
>
> I suppose some of us have been through the wringer enough times that 
> we are a bit cautious. One day soon, it's my hope that it is the newly
> wide awake
> insurance and reinsurance sector that funds this sort of research
> as they
> strive to address and survive climate change and peak oil risks...I'm
> working on that in a variety of ways but who knows what will unfold
> there.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Strawbalefutures info@...
> To: GSBN@...
> Sent: Wed, 26 Apr 2006 23:48:23 +0100
> Subject: GSBN:Re: fire test -- your opinions?
>
>   Hi All
> Just catching up with this very 'USA' debate. First, though, Fantastic 
> you've got the funding for it and are putting so much thought and 
> energy into getting it right. From my European perspective, I am still 
> a bit bemused at your insistence on using cement in any shape or form 
> in buildings
> since it is has no positive environmental credentials, is rigid
> instead of
> flexible, waterproofing instead of weatherproofing, and non-
> permeable to
> vapour instead of permeable. It is a major contributor to the green
> house
> gas effect and global warming, uses up 50% of the UK annual
> electricity
> production to manufacture, does not have a cycle of use that
> returns it back
> to a harmless natural form and by all accounts also blocks aura's
> (for the
> spiritual amongst us!). Finally it is a thoroughly modern,
> (invented in 1824
> and used widely from 1914ish) new and untested material in the
> sense of
> withstanding the test of time compared to lime that has at least
> 12,000
> years of continuous successful use and clay which has far far longer,
> probably as old as the human race itself. As well as only
> specifying natural
> plasters and renders of either lime or clay we have also pioneered
> low-impact foundations that use no cement, and solid floors made
> with either
> lime or clay. All these designs have already been passed by UK
> Building
> Regulations. I think you need to beware of limiting your vision to
> testing
> what you know will pass the test (i.e. lime/cement render, which
> has been
> thoroughly tested already) instead of making sure you all have the
> opportunity to catch up with Europe and enshrine the use of cement
> free
> renders and plasters in your building codes - but you have to
> believe that
> our centuries of tradition are valid, of course. There is one other
> point to
> consider, though, which is that you also need to understand the way
> lime
> works to use it effectively, because it is not like cement, and
> this in
> itself may be your own limiting factor - do you know enough about
> it to use
> and specify it? My vote, in case you hadn't realised by now, would
> be for a
> feebly hydraulic lime render on one wall and the best clay plaster
> you have
> on the other. Both will pass the 2 hour test I'm sure but the clay
> may or
> may not pass the hose test, would be interesting to find out. And
> to use
> bales flat for one and on edge for the other because hey, why not.
> Even
> though we pretty much know what will happen. As Chug said, we were
> involved
> in a fire test with the Building Research Establishment that can't
> be given
> a BS stamp but never-the-less showed that lime rendered strawbale
> walls with
> straw laid flat will withstand fire for more than 2 hours - the
> walls failed
> because of the design of the jig and would probably have withstood
> fire for
> longer in a real situation. We used feebly hydraulic lime, applied
> 12 weeks
> before the test, to both sides of the wall. I can't wait to find
> out what
> the final decision will be! Over to you, boys. Barbara Jones
>
>
> WARNING: Strawbale building can seriously transform your life!
>
> Amazon Nails
> Strawbale Building, Training and Consultancy
> Hollinroyd Farm
> Todmorden
> OL14 8RJ
>
> Tel/fax: 00 44 (0)1706 814696
> email: info@...
> web: www.strawbalefutures.org.uk
>
>
>
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> representatives of regional straw construction organizations. The 
> costs of operating this list
> are underwritten by The Last Straw Journal in exchange for use of
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> as an advisory board and technical editing arm.
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> For instructions on joining, leaving, or otherwise using the GSBN 
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> GSBN is an invitation-only forum of key individuals and 
> representatives of regional straw construction organizations. The 
> costs of operating this list are underwritten by The Last Straw 
> Journal in exchange for use of the GSBN as an advisory board and 
> technical editing arm.
>
> For instructions on joining, leaving, or otherwise using the GSBN 
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GSBN is an invitation-only forum of key individuals and representatives of
regional straw construction organizations. The costs of operating this list
are underwritten by The Last Straw Journal in exchange for use of the GSBN
as an advisory board and technical editing arm.

For instructions on joining, leaving, or otherwise using the GSBN list, send
email to GSBN@...HELP in the SUBJECT line.  
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GSBN is an invitation-only forum of key individuals and representatives of regional straw construction organizations. The costs of operating this list are underwritten by The Last Straw Journal in exchange for use of the GSBN as an advisory board and technical editing arm.

For instructions on joining, leaving, or otherwise using the GSBN list, send email to GSBN@...HELP in the SUBJECT line.
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