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Re: GSBN:Question regaarding toe-ups


One product that is frequently used in France to fill this space is Hemp (the
cellulose part of the stem) It comes in sacs (and is also used with hydraulic
lime to make walls when poured in a formwork). We usually pour it dry in the

Just one note on the moisture build up on ground level: Even if we are sure the
there will be no water comming from the roof. There are still window leaks to
be considered and floods in the house from broken waterpipes/machines. Or just
that guy (in fact a good friend of mine) that put his beers in the bathtub and
put on the watertab before dosing off for a well deserved siesta. Too bad the
overflow hole was not designed for the amount of water that came out of the

Bale on and keep those bales from composting,


One more

Selon Tom Hahn tomhahn@...:

> Matts (and all) - First, let's hope that "...aridity reigns", not
> "...aridity rains" (Is that an oxymoron... or just the Arizona desert
> during monsoon season?)
> This first idea may be too obvious, or have some obvious flaws I'm
> missing late on a Sunday evening, but here goes...
> With all the steps Matts' describes for the use of sawdust, it seems
> like an awful lot of work, and the "support elements" might not be as
> easy/cheap to find as hoped.  Furthermore, at this point, with the
> "leakproof" RBA (?), and the building paper below the toe-up, it
> seems the location of cellulosic material at this location is not of
> great concern... So, why not just really solid 4" thick "flakes" of
> straw as the filler?
> Oriented with the "grain" of the straw parallel to the length of the
> wall, each flake would be about 14.5" - 15.5" wide, and about 23"
> long.  They should be able to be fit nice and tight between the
> toe-ups, and if left a bit "proud" of the toe-up height (say 3.5" to
> 4" thick), they would compress just nicely to support the middle of
> the bales, as the wall went up...  One other benefit would be that if
> they are using "imbalers" on 24" centers or thereabouts, the flakes
> should fit nicely between the rebar without having to skewer them
> cross-grain over the pins.
> A second possibility, though perhaps not the least expensive, would
> be to use a wood-fiber based acoustic insulation board.  They sell
> this stuff for about $7-$8 for a 4x8 sheet at the building supply
> house, and it is treated with a fire-retardant (possibly borax) which
> might help resisting decay.  It only comes in 1/2" and possibly 3/4"
> thickness, but can be ripped on a table-saw very easily to make the
> strips.  I'm not sure how easy it would be to skewer on imbalers, but
> it is a more natural alternative to polystyrene.
> A third option in this vein is a product called Tectum, which is a
> rigid, lightweight, cellulosic ceiling panel material.  See
> <<a  target="_blank" href="http://www.tectum.com";>http://www.tectum.com</a>> for info.  This would be a first for Tectum,
> I'm sure, but it might make some sense.  The panels come in a variety
> of thicknesses (for varying sound insulation uses), so it might be
> possible to get it thick enough that you would only need two layers
> to get to 3".  It should be able to be ripped to size very easily.
> This material is typically coated with some kind of "finish" (paint,
> sealer...?) as well as fire-retardants (it's typically used in large
> commercial "lay-in" ceiling grids) that might make it less prone to
> decay.  Finally, because it is so ubiquitous in commercial work, it
> may be possible to find a 2nd-hand source for this, since it is taken
> out of large commercial remodel projects by the dumpster load...
> There might even be "recyclers" of this cast-off Tectum selling it
> for lower-grade commercial or industrial uses...  Just a thought.
> Hope one of these ideas stirs some more...
> Regards,
> Tom Hahn
> >I recently spent some time on the phone with one of our friends at Red
> >Feather Development Group.   They have been using a toe-up design
> >that involves
> >double 2 x 4's on the outside and double 2 x 6's on the inside, giving a
> total
> >height for the toe-up of 3 inches (7.6 cm.) and a gap between the
> >outer and inner
> >elements of about 14 inches (about 35.5 cm.), when using 3-string bales.
> >They have been using custom-cut strips of rigid foam insulation board to
> fill
> >this gap, but would prefer to be using a method that would require less
> labor
> >and a material that would be less expensive, not petroleum based, derived
> more
> >locally and lower in embodied energy.   Because they are working in areas
> >characterized by very cold winters, they are also concerned about
> >the insulation
> >value of the flller material.   For this reason, they are
> >questioning the use of
> >pea gravel as the gap-filler.   We talked about volcanic pumice, but found
> >ourselves unthusiastic based on the damage done to the landscape during
> mining
> >process, and the lack of any regional source.
> >
> >They build their box-beam roof-bearing-assembly (RBA) in a way that blocks
> >any water from getting down through to the top of the wall, should the roof
> >leak.   In view of this, it occurred to me that if they were willing
> >to provide a
> >moisture barrier, like roofing felt, under the toe-up, it would be safe
> enough
> >to use something like sawdust to fill the gap.   To provide some support,
> >along the centerline of the gap, for the first course of bales, one
> >might lay in
> >place some separate support elements.   These could be assembled from short
> >pieces of 2 x 4 scraps or from pieces cut from warped, unsellable 2 x 4's
> >donated by a friendly lumber yard.   With these in place, one would
> >fill in around
> >these separate support elements with sawdust, and then put the first course
> of
> >bales into place.
> >
> >They and I would appreciate any thoughts any of you might have about the
> >sawdust system described above and any suggestions for alternative
> >solutions to
> >the problem.   Let your creative juices flow.   Just don't let any of those
> >juices drip on your bales.   Let cellulosic aridity reign!
> >
> >Matts
> >
> >
> >
> >
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