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[GSBN-Greenbuilder] Fwd: Re: GSBN:Compression & bumble bees



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            <p>>Date: Tue, 22 Aug 2006 21:05:44 &amp;#43;0200 
>From: Rene Dalmeijer <<a href="<a  target="_blank" href="mailto:rene.dalmeijer@...";>mailto:rene.dalmeijer@...>rene.dalmeijer@...> 
>Subject: Re: GSBN:Compression &amp;amp; bumble bees 
>To: "GSBN" <<a href="<a  target="_blank" href="mailto:GSBN@...";>mailto:GSBN@...>GSBN@...> 
>Reply-To: "GSBN" <<a href="<a  target="_blank" href="mailto:GSBN@...";>mailto:GSBN@...>GSBN@...> 
>Sender: "GSBN" <<a href="<a  target="_blank" href="mailto:GSBN@...";>mailto:GSBN@...>GSBN@...> 
> 
>John, Barbara, 
> 
>I wish to set things right before you all get a  
>completely wrong idea of the German tests.  
>Basically what the German tests have tried to  
>determine is the maximum load you can apply to a  
>bale either 2 string or Jumbo. The reason for  
>these tests is that the current codes in Germany  
>will not accept a load bearing SB building based  
>on a plastered SB sandwich ie bare bales should  
>be able to carry the load all on their own. Off  
>course we and the testers know that the plasters  
>carry most of the loads. 
> 
>What the tests have shown me so far is that bare  
>bales can carry immense loads 30t for a single 2  
>string bale. 
>That bales in a wall work better then on their  
>own because they but against each other. 
>That bales placed on their side are stronger/stiffer then layed flat. 
>And quite a few other aspects that I will await  
>the final outcome of the tests. 
>To put things right these tests are not silly we  
>will now know better what the mechanical  
>properties are of bare bales and which aspects  
>are of influence on these properties. 
> 
>Rene 
>On Aug 22, 2006, at 18:28, John Swearingen wrote: 
> 
>>Ahhh, compression....the squishing of bales.  30%????!!!! 
>> 
>>Barbara's observations concur with everything I've heard, seen and measured 
>>from the field--around 3-6% squishing under gravity loads (depending upon 
>>the quality of bales), most of it happening in the first weeks.  With our 
>>Kalifornia Terminator Bales (TM), we have to work really hard to get 2%, 
>>using jacks and levers. This is commonly called compression, but I would 
>>suggest that the bales are already quite compressed when we put them in the 
>>walls.  It appears self-evident to me, that the majority of this "creep" has 
>>to do with the bales settling in to one another, rather than squishing. 
>>This is an important distinction. 
>> 
>>Thirty percent compression, as the German Scientists suggest, is....well, 
>>Barbara said it politely: "I think it is always useful when conducting 
>>research in laboratory conditions to check in with what happens in practice 
>>as well." 
>> 
>>About plaster, Barbara went on, "A useful observation from the German tests 
>>however is that load bearing bale walls do not require plaster in order to 
>>make them structurally strong, which should add to the debate in the US on 
>>this subject."  That the bales would work without plaster isn't in dispute, 
>>but nobody has suggested, except for a few of us after a long day and a 
>>couple of beers, to forget about the plaster altogether. 
>> 
>>And since it's there, the plaster might as well work. Compression loads will 
>>travel to the stiffest element.  In the case of our bodies, it's our bones 
>>(endoskeleton) that are stiffer than muscles and skin, and so we don't 
>>collapse, even when jumping off of bale walls.  In the case of a plastered 
>>bale wall, the plaster skins are stiffer than the bales, and so they take 
>>the load FIRST.  If the load exceeds the capacity of the skins, the skins 
>>crack (bones break), and the load is then taken by the bales which, we are 
>>reassured by German Scientists, they will do very nicely. 
>> 
>>In earthquake country, we figure that skins will take most seismic events 
>>without too much damage, but in a catastrophic quake will become useless 
>>before the quake is finished--at which point the bales will bounce around 
>>but not break.  The plaster, being stiffer than bales, keeps your windows 
>>from breaking every time the ground quivers. 
>> 
>>Note: in order for this to work most effectively, the plaster skins would 
>>rest on the foundation (rather than hang in air).  This is more true in 
>>theory than practice, I think, because in reality the loads seem to transfer 
>>in and out between the skin and bales. 
>> 
>>The question of plaster skins isn't one only of gravity loads, however. 
>>Walls also bend and stretch apart (in the wind and earthquakes), and bales 
>>don't do very well when pulled upon. In that case the other element of 
>>plaster skins, lathing, can be very important. By surrounding the bales with 
>>a basket of mesh the walls are held together, and loads which develop in 
>>tension are confined and brought back into the bale walls, in compression. 
>>This is a Very Good Thing, and allows the bumble bee bales to fly like an 
>>eagle.  It is also a subject of debate, because lathing costs (a little) 
>>money and trouble, and because if it's METAL lathing, it might turn the 
>>occupants into electro-jellyfish due to EMF, which would be a Very Bad 
>>Thing. 
>> 
>>John "Squish me in the Moonlight" Swearingen 
>> 
>> 
>>John Swearingen 
>>  SKILLFUL MEANS 
>>design and construction 
>>  www.skillful-means.com 
>> 
>> 
>>-----Original Message----- 
>>From: GSBN [mailto:<a href="<a  target="_blank" href="mailto:GSBN@...";>mailto:GSBN@...>GSBN@...] On Behalf Of 
>>Strawbalefutures 
>>Sent: Tuesday, August 22, 2006 2:42 AM 
>>To: GSBN 
>>Subject: RE: GSBN:Compression &amp;amp; bumble bees 
>> 
>> 
>>Hi Maren 
>>It has to be made clear that the tests done in Germany showing the need for 
>>so much pre-compression (30%) are not borne out in practice. They are very 
>>interesting results and we need to understand them, but we have built a 2 
>>storey loadbearing house that remained unplastered over the winter - that 
>>is, had it's full load on the walls for several months - and the maximum 
>>compression we had on the ground floor walls was 6%. We  know from many 
>>practical experiences that loadbearing walls do compress a certain amount 
>>under their full loading, that most of this happens in the first 2 weeks, 
>>and that it has virtually stopped by 6 weeks. On top of this, there is the 
>>effect of plaster on the walls, which definitely has an effect to reduce the 
>>amount of compression experienced if it is applied before the 6 week period 
>>is over. 
>> 
>>A useful observation from the German tests however is that loadbearing bale 
>>walls do not require plaster in order to make them structurally strong, 
>>which should add to the debate in the US on this subject. 
>> 
>>I think it is always useful when conducting research in laboratory 
>>conditions to check in with what happens in practice as well. Hence the 
>>inability of the bumble bee to fly analogy. 
>> 
>>Best wishes 
>>Barbara 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>>WARNING: Strawbale building can seriously transform your life! 
>> 
>>Amazon Nails 
>>Strawbale Building, Training and Consultancy 
>>Hollinroyd Farm 
>>Todmorden 
>>OL14 8RJ 
>> 
>>Tel/fax: 00 44 (0)1706 814696 
>>email: <a href="<a  target="_blank" href="mailto:info@...";>mailto:info@...>info@... 
>>web: www.strawbalefutures.org.uk 
>> 
>> 
>>-----Original Message----- 
>>From: GSBN [mailto:<a href="<a  target="_blank" href="mailto:GSBN@...";>mailto:GSBN@...>GSBN@...]On Behalf Of Rene Dalmeijer 
>>Sent: 22 August 2006 09:15 
>>To: GSBN 
>>Subject: Re: GSBN:Compression 
>> 
>>Maren, 
>> 
>>I just visited the FASBA (German SB association) gathering in Walthershausen 
>>where 2 presenters focussed on this subject based on laboratory testing 
>>trying to determine how much pre-tension is required to avoid creep with 
>>unplastered bales. Basically what it boils down to is that you need 30% pre 
>>compression on 100kg/m^3 dry density bales. ie practically impossible. At 
>>the same time though I must clearly state that the tests being done are very 
>>useful and will give us some very useful data on the behavior of unplastered 
>>2 string and Jumbo bales. 
>> 
>>John Zahng of Australia has done similar plastered full wall tests and found 
>>that about 4% pre-compression is required to avoid initial creep. This 
>>figure roughly corresponds to what has been found in practice to be the 
>>right amount of pre-compression. Incidentally the force-deflection curves 
>>presented at the Fasba gathering exhibited the same flow as those found by 
>>John Zahng. 
>> 
>>Rene 
>>On Aug 22, 2006, at 06:54, Maren Termens wrote: 
>> 
>>>Hi all, 
>>> 
>>>   does somebody know which pressure per area  it's needed to compress 
>>>Nebraska-walls? Or can you tell me which pressure are you normally 
>>>using? I'm looking after essays and tests which work with this item, I 
>>>couldn't find technical information about that. 
>>>   Thanks a lot. 
>>> 
>>>   Maren 
>>> 
>>> 
>>>--------------------------------- 
>>> 
>>>LLama Gratis a cualquier PC del Mundo. 
>>>Llamadas a fijos y m?viles desde 1 c?ntimo por minuto. 
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