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[GSBN-Greenbuilder] Fwd: RE: GSBN:Compression & bumble bees



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            <p>>Date: Tue, 22 Aug 2006 12:38:28 -0700 
>From: "John Swearingen" <<a href="<a  target="_blank" href="mailto:jswearingen@...";>mailto:jswearingen@...>jswearingen@...> 
>Subject: RE: GSBN:Compression &amp;amp; bumble bees 
>To: "'GSBN'" <<a href="<a  target="_blank" href="mailto:GSBN@...";>mailto:GSBN@...>GSBN@...> 
>Reply-To: "GSBN" <<a href="<a  target="_blank" href="mailto:GSBN@...";>mailto:GSBN@...>GSBN@...> 
>Sender: "GSBN" <<a href="<a  target="_blank" href="mailto:GSBN@...";>mailto:GSBN@...>GSBN@...> 
> 
>Rene, 
> 
>I admit to taking liberties with the fine work being done, just to make a 
>point, and I'm sure they are gathering information that will be useful to us 
>all. 
> 
>It appears that what you're saying is that, for very high loads, the degree 
>of deformation of the bales determines the carrying capacity.  This is 
>obviously the case with bales put in a wall, and I'm surmising that it's the 
>reason that bales on edge perform better than laid flat--on edge, the 
>strings act to constrain the bales from bulging along their width?  Or does 
>it have to do with the direction of the grain.  If that's the case, then 
>that needs to be pointed out, because different baling machines gather the 
>stalks in different directions. 
> 
>John 
> 
> 
> 
>John Swearingen 
>  SKILLFUL MEANS 
>design and construction 
>  www.skillful-means.com 
> 
> 
>-----Original Message----- 
>From: GSBN [mailto:<a href="<a  target="_blank" href="mailto:GSBN@...";>mailto:GSBN@...>GSBN@...] On Behalf Of Rene Dalmeijer 
>Sent: Tuesday, August 22, 2006 12:06 PM 
>To: GSBN 
>Subject: Re: GSBN:Compression &amp;amp; bumble bees 
> 
> 
>John, Barbara, 
> 
>I wish to set things right before you all get a completely wrong idea 
>of the German tests. Basically what the German tests have tried to 
>determine is the maximum load you can apply to a bale either 2 string 
>or Jumbo. The reason for these tests is that the current codes in 
>Germany will not accept a load bearing SB building based on a plastered 
>SB sandwich ie bare bales should be able to carry the load all on their 
>own. Off course we and the testers know that the plasters carry most of 
>the loads. 
> 
>What the tests have shown me so far is that bare bales can carry 
>immense loads 30t for a single 2 string bale. 
>That bales in a wall work better then on their own because they but 
>against each other. 
>That bales placed on their side are stronger/stiffer then layed flat. And 
>quite a few other aspects that I will await the final outcome of 
>the tests. 
>To put things right these tests are not silly we will now know better 
>what the mechanical properties are of bare bales and which aspects are 
>of influence on these properties. 
> 
>Rene 
>On Aug 22, 2006, at 18:28, John Swearingen wrote: 
> 
>>  Ahhh, compression....the squishing of bales.  30%????!!!! 
>> 
>>  Barbara's observations concur with everything I've heard, seen and 
>>  measured 
>>  from the field--around 3-6% squishing under gravity loads (depending 
>>  upon 
>>  the quality of bales), most of it happening in the first weeks.  With 
>>  our 
>>  Kalifornia Terminator Bales (TM), we have to work really hard to get 
>>  2%, 
>>  using jacks and levers. This is commonly called compression, but I 
>>  would 
>>  suggest that the bales are already quite compressed when we put them 
>>  in the 
>>  walls.  It appears self-evident to me, that the majority of this 
>>  "creep" has 
>>  to do with the bales settling in to one another, rather than squishing. 
>>  This is an important distinction. 
>> 
>>  Thirty percent compression, as the German Scientists suggest, 
>>  is....well, 
>>  Barbara said it politely: "I think it is always useful when conducting 
>>  research in laboratory conditions to check in with what happens in 
>>  practice 
>>  as well." 
>> 
>>  About plaster, Barbara went on, "A useful observation from the German 
>>  tests 
>>  however is that load bearing bale walls do not require plaster in 
>>  order to 
>>  make them structurally strong, which should add to the debate in the 
>>  US on 
>>  this subject."  That the bales would work without plaster isn't in 
>>  dispute, 
>>  but nobody has suggested, except for a few of us after a long day and a 
>>  couple of beers, to forget about the plaster altogether. 
>> 
>>  And since it's there, the plaster might as well work. Compression 
>>  loads will 
>>  travel to the stiffest element.  In the case of our bodies, it's our 
>>  bones 
>>  (endoskeleton) that are stiffer than muscles and skin, and so we don't 
>  > collapse, even when jumping off of bale walls.  In the case of a 
>>  plastered 
>>  bale wall, the plaster skins are stiffer than the bales, and so they 
>>  take 
>>  the load FIRST.  If the load exceeds the capacity of the skins, the 
>>  skins 
>>  crack (bones break), and the load is then taken by the bales which, we 
>>  are 
>>  reassured by German Scientists, they will do very nicely. 
>> 
>>  In earthquake country, we figure that skins will take most seismic 
>>  events 
>>  without too much damage, but in a catastrophic quake will become 
>>  useless 
>>  before the quake is finished--at which point the bales will bounce 
>>  around 
>>  but not break.  The plaster, being stiffer than bales, keeps your 
>>  windows 
>>  from breaking every time the ground quivers. 
>> 
>>  Note: in order for this to work most effectively, the plaster skins 
>>  would 
>>  rest on the foundation (rather than hang in air).  This is more true in 
>>  theory than practice, I think, because in reality the loads seem to 
>>  transfer 
>>  in and out between the skin and bales. 
>> 
>>  The question of plaster skins isn't one only of gravity loads, 
>>  however. Walls also bend and stretch apart (in the wind and 
>>  earthquakes), and bales don't do very well when pulled upon. In that 
>>  case the other element of plaster skins, lathing, can be very 
>>  important. By surrounding the bales with 
>>  a basket of mesh the walls are held together, and loads which develop 
>>  in 
>>  tension are confined and brought back into the bale walls, in 
>>  compression. 
>>  This is a Very Good Thing, and allows the bumble bee bales to fly like 
>>  an 
>>  eagle.  It is also a subject of debate, because lathing costs (a 
>>  little) 
>>  money and trouble, and because if it's METAL lathing, it might turn the 
>>  occupants into electro-jellyfish due to EMF, which would be a Very Bad 
>>  Thing. 
>> 
>>  John "Squish me in the Moonlight" Swearingen 
>> 
>> 
>>  John Swearingen 
>>   SKILLFUL MEANS 
>>  design and construction 
>>   www.skillful-means.com 
>> 
>> 
>>  -----Original Message----- 
>>  From: GSBN [mailto:<a href="<a  target="_blank" href="mailto:GSBN@...";>mailto:GSBN@...>GSBN@...] On Behalf Of 
>>  Strawbalefutures 
>>  Sent: Tuesday, August 22, 2006 2:42 AM 
>>  To: GSBN 
>>  Subject: RE: GSBN:Compression &amp;amp; bumble bees 
>> 
>> 
>>  Hi Maren 
>>  It has to be made clear that the tests done in Germany showing the 
>>  need for 
>>  so much pre-compression (30%) are not borne out in practice. They are 
>>  very 
>>  interesting results and we need to understand them, but we have built 
>>  a 2 
>>  storey loadbearing house that remained unplastered over the winter - 
>>  that 
>>  is, had it's full load on the walls for several months - and the 
>>  maximum 
>>  compression we had on the ground floor walls was 6%. We  know from many 
>>  practical experiences that loadbearing walls do compress a certain 
>>  amount 
>>  under their full loading, that most of this happens in the first 2 
>>  weeks, 
>>  and that it has virtually stopped by 6 weeks. On top of this, there is 
>>  the 
>>  effect of plaster on the walls, which definitely has an effect to 
>>  reduce the 
>>  amount of compression experienced if it is applied before the 6 week 
>>  period 
>>  is over. 
>> 
>>  A useful observation from the German tests however is that loadbearing 
>>  bale 
>>  walls do not require plaster in order to make them structurally strong, 
>>  which should add to the debate in the US on this subject. 
>> 
>>  I think it is always useful when conducting research in laboratory 
>>  conditions to check in with what happens in practice as well. Hence 
>>  the inability of the bumble bee to fly analogy. 
>> 
>>  Best wishes 
>>  Barbara 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>>  WARNING: Strawbale building can seriously transform your life! 
>> 
>>  Amazon Nails 
>>  Strawbale Building, Training and Consultancy 
>>  Hollinroyd Farm 
>>  Todmorden 
>>  OL14 8RJ 
>> 
>>  Tel/fax: 00 44 (0)1706 814696 
>>  email: <a href="<a  target="_blank" href="mailto:info@...";>mailto:info@...>info@... 
>>  web: www.strawbalefutures.org.uk 
>> 
>> 
>>  -----Original Message----- 
>>  From: GSBN [mailto:<a href="<a  target="_blank" href="mailto:GSBN@...";>mailto:GSBN@...>GSBN@...]On Behalf Of Rene 
>>  Dalmeijer 
>>  Sent: 22 August 2006 09:15 
>>  To: GSBN 
>>  Subject: Re: GSBN:Compression 
>> 
>>  Maren, 
>> 
>>  I just visited the FASBA (German SB association) gathering in 
>>  Walthershausen 
>>  where 2 presenters focussed on this subject based on laboratory testing 
>>  trying to determine how much pre-tension is required to avoid creep 
>  > with 
>>  unplastered bales. Basically what it boils down to is that you need 
>>  30% pre 
>>  compression on 100kg/m^3 dry density bales. ie practically impossible. 
>>  At 
>>  the same time though I must clearly state that the tests being done 
>>  are very 
>>  useful and will give us some very useful data on the behavior of 
>>  unplastered 
>>  2 string and Jumbo bales. 
>> 
>>  John Zahng of Australia has done similar plastered full wall tests and 
>>  found 
>>  that about 4% pre-compression is required to avoid initial creep. This 
>>  figure roughly corresponds to what has been found in practice to be the 
>>  right amount of pre-compression. Incidentally the force-deflection 
>>  curves 
>>  presented at the Fasba gathering exhibited the same flow as those 
>>  found by 
>>  John Zahng. 
>> 
>>  Rene 
>>  On Aug 22, 2006, at 06:54, Maren Termens wrote: 
>> 
>>>  Hi all, 
>>> 
>>>    does somebody know which pressure per area  it's needed to compress 
>>>  Nebraska-walls? Or can you tell me which pressure are you normally 
>>>  using? I'm looking after essays and tests which work with this item, 
>>>  I couldn't find technical information about that. 
>>>    Thanks a lot. 
>>> 
>>>    Maren 
>>> 
>>> 
>>>  --------------------------------- 
>>> 
>>>  LLama Gratis a cualquier PC del Mundo. 
>>>  Llamadas a fijos y m?viles desde 1 c?ntimo por minuto. 
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