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[GSBN-Greenbuilder] Fwd: GSBN:Va otra de compresi?n



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            <p>>Date: Wed, 23 Aug 2006 09:07:32 &amp;#43;0200 (CEST) 
>From: Maren Termens <<a href="<a  target="_blank" href="mailto:autoconstruccin@...";>mailto:autoconstruccin@...>autoconstruccin@...> 
>Subject: GSBN:Va otra de compresi?n 
>To: GSBN <<a href="<a  target="_blank" href="mailto:GSBN@...";>mailto:GSBN@...>GSBN@...> 
>Reply-To: "GSBN" <<a href="<a  target="_blank" href="mailto:GSBN@...";>mailto:GSBN@...>GSBN@...> 
>Sender: "GSBN" <<a href="<a  target="_blank" href="mailto:GSBN@...";>mailto:GSBN@...>GSBN@...> 
> 
>Hola Val, 
> 
> 
>   estoy "convencida" de que esta respuesta  
>resolver? todas tus dudas y podremos resolver  
>satisfactoriamente el problema. 
>   H?gase as?: 
>   C?jase sujeto humano- preferiblemente hombre  
>machista - y l?ncese contra el muro. Luego  
>comprueba los da?os y dec?dase si el muro est?  
>correctamente ejecutado o no!!! ;o) 
>   Maren 
> 
>John Sweari 
>   ngen <<a href="<a  target="_blank" href="mailto:jswearingen@...";>mailto:jswearingen@...>jswearingen@...> escribi?: 
>   Actually a crane, or backhoe, is an easy way to do it, as long as you have a 
>way to hold the wall down after you've loaded it with the crane. 
> 
>How much? Well, do it enough. Until the walls are firm when you slam into 
>them with your body (you might devise a better test, but I kinda like 
>throwing myself at the wall the best). 
> 
>John "Why am I Dizzy?" Swearingen 
> 
>John Swearingen 
>SKILLFUL MEANS 
>design and construction 
>www.skillful-means.com 
> 
> 
>-----Original Message----- 
>From: GSBN [mailto:<a href="<a  target="_blank" href="mailto:GSBN@...";>mailto:GSBN@...>GSBN@...] On Behalf Of Maren Termens 
>Sent: Tuesday, August 22, 2006 12:25 PM 
>To: GSBN 
>Subject: GSBN:Compression &amp;amp; bumble bees 
> 
> 
>Hi Barbara, John, Rene...and all... 
> 
>perhaps you remember, only few weeks ago I explained that we tried a 
>different system to build a Nebraska-style-home...so - of course- we now 
>have problems. 
>On top of the walls (house aprox. 5m wide x 13.5m long) we placed two huge 
>wood panels (flat roof). Each panel 1700kg, total load 3400kg. We wanted to 
>try not to use a ring-beam and use this huge panels as ring-beam and 
>compress with them afterwards...so, now the load is too little and the load 
>is "too well spreaded"...only 2cm of compression and the walls move and 
>don't give a very "nice feeling". Now the idea was eventually to compress 
>with a crane and fix all with the "plastic-belts" (sorry, I don't know the 
>English name).Does anybody know which is the force you need to compress a 
>wall this 6% you recommend?) If you think it's crazy to do it with a crane, 
>please, we're open to every suggestion!!! 
> 
>If not, perhaps we try it with truckload belts with spanners fixed to the 
>panels and the...if not, perhaps we need to take away the panels, build a 
>ring-beam and pre-compress the walls and place again the panels. 
> 
>Thanks again for all your help, 
> 
>Maren 
> 
> 
>Rene Dalmeijer escribi?: John, Barbara, 
> 
>I wish to set things right before you all get a completely wrong idea of the 
>German tests. Basically what the German tests have tried to determine is the 
>maximum load you can apply to a bale either 2 string or Jumbo. The reason 
>for these tests is that the current codes in Germany will not accept a load 
>bearing SB building based on a plastered SB sandwich ie bare bales should be 
>able to carry the load all on their own. Off course we and the testers know 
>that the plasters carry most of the loads. 
> 
>What the tests have shown me so far is that bare bales can carry immense 
>loads 30t for a single 2 string bale. That bales in a wall work better then 
>on their own because they but against each other. That bales placed on their 
>side are stronger/stiffer then layed flat. And quite a few other aspects 
>that I will await the final outcome of the tests. To put things right these 
>tests are not silly we will now know better what the mechanical properties 
>are of bare bales and which aspects are of influence on these properties. 
> 
>Rene 
>On Aug 22, 2006, at 18:28, John Swearingen wrote: 
> 
>>  Ahhh, compression....the squishing of bales. 30%????!!!! 
>> 
>>  Barbara's observations concur with everything I've heard, seen and 
>>  measured from the field--around 3-6% squishing under gravity loads 
>>  (depending upon 
>>  the quality of bales), most of it happening in the first weeks. With 
>>  our 
>>  Kalifornia Terminator Bales (TM), we have to work really hard to get 
>>  2%, 
>>  using jacks and levers. This is commonly called compression, but I 
>  > would 
>>  suggest that the bales are already quite compressed when we put them 
>>  in the 
>>  walls. It appears self-evident to me, that the majority of this 
>>  "creep" has 
>>  to do with the bales settling in to one another, rather than squishing. 
>>  This is an important distinction. 
>> 
>>  Thirty percent compression, as the German Scientists suggest, 
>>  is....well, Barbara said it politely: "I think it is always useful 
>>  when conducting research in laboratory conditions to check in with 
>>  what happens in practice 
>>  as well." 
>> 
>>  About plaster, Barbara went on, "A useful observation from the German 
>>  tests however is that load bearing bale walls do not require plaster 
>>  in order to 
>>  make them structurally strong, which should add to the debate in the 
>>  US on 
>>  this subject." That the bales would work without plaster isn't in 
>>  dispute, 
>>  but nobody has suggested, except for a few of us after a long day and a 
>>  couple of beers, to forget about the plaster altogether. 
>> 
>>  And since it's there, the plaster might as well work. Compression 
>>  loads will travel to the stiffest element. In the case of our bodies, 
>>  it's our bones 
>>  (endoskeleton) that are stiffer than muscles and skin, and so we don't 
>>  collapse, even when jumping off of bale walls. In the case of a 
>>  plastered 
>>  bale wall, the plaster skins are stiffer than the bales, and so they 
>>  take 
>>  the load FIRST. If the load exceeds the capacity of the skins, the 
>>  skins 
>>  crack (bones break), and the load is then taken by the bales which, we 
>>  are 
>>  reassured by German Scientists, they will do very nicely. 
>> 
>>  In earthquake country, we figure that skins will take most seismic 
>>  events without too much damage, but in a catastrophic quake will 
>>  become useless 
>>  before the quake is finished--at which point the bales will bounce 
>>  around 
>>  but not break. The plaster, being stiffer than bales, keeps your 
>>  windows 
>>  from breaking every time the ground quivers. 
>> 
>>  Note: in order for this to work most effectively, the plaster skins 
>>  would rest on the foundation (rather than hang in air). This is more 
>>  true in theory than practice, I think, because in reality the loads 
>>  seem to transfer 
>>  in and out between the skin and bales. 
>> 
>>  The question of plaster skins isn't one only of gravity loads, 
>>  however. Walls also bend and stretch apart (in the wind and 
>>  earthquakes), and bales don't do very well when pulled upon. In that 
>>  case the other element of plaster skins, lathing, can be very 
>>  important. By surrounding the bales with 
>>  a basket of mesh the walls are held together, and loads which develop 
>>  in 
>>  tension are confined and brought back into the bale walls, in 
>>  compression. 
>>  This is a Very Good Thing, and allows the bumble bee bales to fly like 
>>  an 
>>  eagle. It is also a subject of debate, because lathing costs (a 
>>  little) 
>>  money and trouble, and because if it's METAL lathing, it might turn the 
>>  occupants into electro-jellyfish due to EMF, which would be a Very Bad 
>>  Thing. 
>> 
>>  John "Squish me in the Moonlight" Swearingen 
>> 
>> 
>>  John Swearingen 
>>  SKILLFUL MEANS 
>>  design and construction 
>>  www.skillful-means.com 
>> 
>> 
>>  -----Original Message----- 
>>  From: GSBN [mailto:<a href="<a  target="_blank" href="mailto:GSBN@...";>mailto:GSBN@...>GSBN@...] On Behalf Of 
>>  Strawbalefutures 
>>  Sent: Tuesday, August 22, 2006 2:42 AM 
>>  To: GSBN 
>>  Subject: RE: GSBN:Compression &amp;amp; bumble bees 
>> 
>> 
>>  Hi Maren 
>>  It has to be made clear that the tests done in Germany showing the 
>>  need for so much pre-compression (30%) are not borne out in practice. 
>>  They are very 
>>  interesting results and we need to understand them, but we have built 
>>  a 2 
>>  storey loadbearing house that remained unplastered over the winter - 
>>  that 
>>  is, had it's full load on the walls for several months - and the 
>>  maximum 
>>  compression we had on the ground floor walls was 6%. We know from many 
>>  practical experiences that loadbearing walls do compress a certain 
>>  amount 
>>  under their full loading, that most of this happens in the first 2 
>>  weeks, 
>>  and that it has virtually stopped by 6 weeks. On top of this, there is 
>>  the 
>>  effect of plaster on the walls, which definitely has an effect to 
>  > reduce the 
>>  amount of compression experienced if it is applied before the 6 week 
>>  period 
>>  is over. 
>> 
>>  A useful observation from the German tests however is that loadbearing 
>>  bale walls do not require plaster in order to make them structurally 
>>  strong, which should add to the debate in the US on this subject. 
>> 
>>  I think it is always useful when conducting research in laboratory 
>>  conditions to check in with what happens in practice as well. Hence 
>>  the inability of the bumble bee to fly analogy. 
>> 
>>  Best wishes 
>>  Barbara 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>>  WARNING: Strawbale building can seriously transform your life! 
>> 
>>  Amazon Nails 
>>  Strawbale Building, Training and Consultancy 
>>  Hollinroyd Farm 
>>  Todmorden 
>>  OL14 8RJ 
>> 
>>  Tel/fax: 00 44 (0)1706 814696 
>>  email: <a href="<a  target="_blank" href="mailto:info@...";>mailto:info@...>info@... 
>>  web: www.strawbalefutures.org.uk 
>> 
>> 
>>  -----Original Message----- 
>>  From: GSBN [mailto:<a href="<a  target="_blank" href="mailto:GSBN@...";>mailto:GSBN@...>GSBN@...]On Behalf Of Rene 
>>  Dalmeijer 
>>  Sent: 22 August 2006 09:15 
>>  To: GSBN 
>>  Subject: Re: GSBN:Compression 
>> 
>>  Maren, 
>> 
>>  I just visited the FASBA (German SB association) gathering in 
>>  Walthershausen where 2 presenters focussed on this subject based on 
>>  laboratory testing trying to determine how much pre-tension is 
>>  required to avoid creep with 
>>  unplastered bales. Basically what it boils down to is that you need 
>>  30% pre 
>>  compression on 100kg/m^3 dry density bales. ie practically impossible. 
>>  At 
>>  the same time though I must clearly state that the tests being done 
>>  are very 
>>  useful and will give us some very useful data on the behavior of 
>>  unplastered 
>>  2 string and Jumbo bales. 
>> 
>>  John Zahng of Australia has done similar plastered full wall tests and 
>>  found that about 4% pre-compression is required to avoid initial 
>>  creep. This figure roughly corresponds to what has been found in 
>>  practice to be the right amount of pre-compression. Incidentally the 
>>  force-deflection curves 
>>  presented at the Fasba gathering exhibited the same flow as those 
>>  found by 
>>  John Zahng. 
>> 
>>  Rene 
>>  On Aug 22, 2006, at 06:54, Maren Termens wrote: 
>> 
>>>  Hi all, 
>>> 
>>>  does somebody know which pressure per area it's needed to compress 
>>>  Nebraska-walls? Or can you tell me which pressure are you normally 
>>>  using? I'm looking after essays and tests which work with this item, 
>>>  I couldn't find technical information about that. Thanks a lot. 
>>> 
>>>  Maren 
>>> 
>>> 
>>>  --------------------------------- 
>>> 
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</html><!--End group email -->


</x-html>