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[GSBN-Greenbuilder] Fwd: Re: GSBN:plaster and straw question



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            <p>>Date: Fri, 25 Aug 2006 09:26:22 &amp;#43;1000 
>From: "Lars Keller" <<a href="<a  target="_blank" href="mailto:larskeller@...";>mailto:larskeller@...>larskeller@...> 
>Subject: Re: GSBN:plaster and straw question 
>To: GSBN <<a href="<a  target="_blank" href="mailto:GSBN@...";>mailto:GSBN@...>GSBN@...> 
>Reply-To: "GSBN" <<a href="<a  target="_blank" href="mailto:GSBN@...";>mailto:GSBN@...>GSBN@...> 
>Sender: "GSBN" <<a href="<a  target="_blank" href="mailto:GSBN@...";>mailto:GSBN@...>GSBN@...> 
> 
>Dear GSBN... 
> 
>Below is a comment from Joergen Munch-Andersen. 
> 
>Joergen has been a reliably constructive resource for the development of SBC 
>in Denmark all the way. 
>I keep passing on the good stuff from GSBN to him, while always thinking 
>that he ought to be on the list himself, while at the same time thinking 
>that there is no way he'll have the time, but as he has just suggested it 
>himself, I would like to suggest that he is invited in ? 
> 
>This is what I wrote on this list about him on May 7th: 
>... Joergen Munch-Andersen, whom some of you might have met at 
>the ISBBC 04. Joergen is Senior Researcher at the Danish Building Research 
>Institute 
>(www.sbi.dk) and has for more than 5 years consistently been constructively 
>critical and he has made a huge difference towards making SBC  an accepted 
>building method in Denmark. 
>Furthermore I should say that Joergen has on several occasions shown that he 
>is ready to put in time. 
> 
>Regards, 
>Lars 
> 
>>   I believe that what Bruce calls speculation is the way it works. In our 
>>report on straw bale building there is a section on experiments with straw 
>>bale walls with clay and lime plaster, written in English. Cement is of 
>>course more dangerous, but we subjected our wall to very severe moisture 
>>conditions for a long time, and still nothing happened with the straw. 
>> 
>>The report can be found at 
>> 
>><a href="<a  target="_blank" href="http://www.sbi.dk/byggeteknik/konstruktioner/serlige-konstruktioner/halmhuse/halmhuse/&quot";>http://www.sbi.dk/byggeteknik/konstruktioner/serlige-konstruktioner/halmhuse/halmhuse/&quot</a>;><a  target="_blank" href="http://www.sbi";>http://www.sbi</a>.dk/byggeteknik/konstruktioner/serlige-konstruktioner/halmhuse/halmhuse/</a> 
>>click on download pdf to the right and go to page 46. 
>> 
>>I cannot quite guess how the wood/plaster walls are constructed, 
>>especially where the grade D paper is placed (I assume that it is some sort 
>>of a vapour barrier). But if it is on the inside of the wood, rain water 
>>penetrating the plaster is trapped between two vapour barriers. If it is on 
>>the outside, moisture from the inside is absorbed by to wood. So it is 
>>deemed to fail. In a straw wall the mass of the cellulose is much bigger, so 
>>it can absorb more water. 
>> 
>>I hope this can be of help to somebody. 
>> 
>> 
>>J&#xBF;rgen Munch-Andersen 
>>SBi, Danish Building Research Institute 
>>Dr. Neergaardsvej 15 
>>DK-2970 H&#xBF;rsholm 
>>tlf &amp;#43;45 4574 2388 
>>fax &amp;#43;45 4586 3575 
>><a href="<a  target="_blank" href="mailto:jma@...";>mailto:jma@...>jma@... 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>>On Jul 2, 2006, at 2:23 PM, Pinyon Engineering wrote: 
>> 
>>>  Hi list 
>>> 
>>>  I have been working on revising the Detail Book that CASBA put 
>>>  together back in 2000 
>>> 
>>>  I have a question:  Why can we apply cement plaster directly to bales 
>>>  but not to wood?  aren't they both cellous? 
>> 
>> 
>>An ongoing question, subject to lots of discussion over the years. 
>> 
>>Bob Platts, a very capable engineer in Canada, opened up various 
>>cement-plastered bale structures of up to ten years of age (as I 
>>recall;  it was in The Last Straw a long time ago).  He was looking for 
>>any sign of problems at the straw-plaster interface, and didn't find 
>>any -- no sign of alkaline attack (from the high pH cement), nor any 
>>sign of water vapor condensing on the inside of the outer plaster skin 
>>(as was widely expected in a heating climate like Canada -- warm moist 
>>air moving outwards, dropping in temperature in the wall "cavity" 
>>(bale), and hitting the dew point at or near the back of the plaster. 
>> 
>>There should have been a problem, and there wasn't.  Maybe Bob just 
>>didn't look hard enough, but, as I said, he's a pretty smart guy. 
>> 
>>General speculation is that straw, unlike its more dense cousin, wood, 
>>is able to disperse any water or condensation by capillarity, then let 
>>it dry by any or all of several mechanisms before decay can set in.  In 
>>a Canadian house in winter, for example, there can be water there for 
>>quite a while at the interface, but so long as it remains below 40 
>>degrees F or so, the microorganisms don't wake up and start to work. 
>>By the time it warms up enough, the water dries up. 
>> 
>>That is the speculation, anyway. 
>> 
>>At a wood/plaster interface, the water is trapped, and remains in place 
>>as the temperature rises, so the critters start a-molding.  I saw 
>>abundant evidence of just this behind every failed stucco wall (about 
>>30 of them) that I inspected after the 1989 San Francisco earthquake. 
>>Even where there were two layers of grade D paper as per code, water 
>>had gotten behind it (the paper) and there was, typically, lots of rot 
>>in buildings over ten years old. 
>> 
>>Bruce King, PE, rotting away the time 
>>Director, Ecological Building Network  ( www.ecobuildnetwork.org ) 
>>Publisher, Green Building Press  ( www.greenbuildingpress.com ) 
>>209 Caledonia St. 
>>Sausalito, CA 94965  USA 
>>(415) 331-7630 
>>bruce@ ecobuildnetwork.org 
>> 
>>---- 
>>For instructions on joining, leaving, or otherwise using the GSBN list, 
>>send email to <a href="<a  target="_blank" href="mailto:GSBN@...";>mailto:GSBN@...>GSBN@... with HELP in the SUBJECT line. 
>>---- 
>> 
>> 
>> 
> 
> 
>-- 
>Jo, Asger og jeg er pt I Australien. Vi er i Danmark igen midt november. 
>Juli, august og september kan vi kun traeffes paa nedenstaaende mobilnummer, 
>samt modtage post via nedenstaaende adresse. 
> 
>Jo, Asger and I are in Australia until mid November this year. July, August 
>September our contacts are: 
> 
><a href="<a  target="_blank" href="mailto:jomorandin@...";>mailto:jomorandin@...>jomorandin@... 
><a href="<a  target="_blank" href="mailto:larskeller@...";>mailto:larskeller@...>larskeller@... 
> 
>Lars, Jo og Asger 
>5 Crouch Street North 
>Mount Gambier 
>5290 SA 
>Australien 
> 
>Mobiltlf: 0061 405 366 455 
>-- 
> 
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>---- 
 
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                    <li><a href="<a  target="_blank" href="http://groups.yahoo.com/gads;_ylc=X3oDMTJjbnQ4MzRvBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BF9wAzUEZ3JwSWQDODUyNjczNQRncnBzcElkAzE3MDcyMTkxMTIEc2VjA3NsbW9kBHN0aW1lAzExNjg2NDg2OTg-?t=ms&amp;k=Business+finance+course&amp;w1=Construction+industry&amp;w2=Small+business+finance&amp;w3=Business+finance+online&amp;w4=Business+finance+training&amp;w5=Business+finance+course&amp;c=5&amp;s=144&amp;g=2&amp;.sig=sRoD7LH-CLpzM8KHORWgdw&quot";>http://groups.yahoo.com/gads;_ylc=X3oDMTJjbnQ4MzRvBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BF9wAzUEZ3JwSWQDODUyNjczNQRncnBzcElkAzE3MDcyMTkxMTIEc2VjA3NsbW9kBHN0aW1lAzExNjg2NDg2OTg-?t=ms&amp;k=Business+finance+course&amp;w1=Construction+industry&amp;w2=Small+business+finance&amp;w3=Business+finance+online&amp;w4=Business+finance+training&amp;w5=Business+finance+course&amp;c=5&amp;s=144&amp;g=2&amp;.sig=sRoD7LH-CLpzM8KHORWgdw&quot</a>;>Business finance course</a></li>
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