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[GSBN-Greenbuilder] Fwd: Re: GSBN:plaster and straw question



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            <p>>Date: Thu, 24 Aug 2006 21:22:15 -0500 
>From: Joyce Coppinger <<a href="<a  target="_blank" href="mailto:jc10508@...";>mailto:jc10508@...>jc10508@...> 
>Subject: Re: GSBN:plaster and straw question 
>To: GSBN <<a href="<a  target="_blank" href="mailto:GSBN@...";>mailto:GSBN@...>GSBN@...> 
>Reply-To: "GSBN" <<a href="<a  target="_blank" href="mailto:GSBN@...";>mailto:GSBN@...>GSBN@...> 
>Sender: "GSBN" <<a href="<a  target="_blank" href="mailto:GSBN@...";>mailto:GSBN@...>GSBN@...> 
> 
>Sounds like Joergen would be a good addition to the GSBN list. 
> 
>Joyce 
> 
>on 8.24.2006 6:26 PM, Lars Keller at <a href="<a  target="_blank" href="mailto:larskeller@...";>mailto:larskeller@...>larskeller@... wrote: 
> 
>>  Dear GSBN... 
>> 
>>  Below is a comment from Joergen Munch-Andersen. 
>> 
>>  Joergen has been a reliably constructive resource for the development of SBC 
>>  in Denmark all the way. 
>>  I keep passing on the good stuff from GSBN to him, while always thinking 
>>  that he ought to be on the list himself, while at the same time thinking 
>>  that there is no way he'll have the time, but as he has just suggested it 
>>  himself, I would like to suggest that he is invited in ? 
>> 
>>  This is what I wrote on this list about him on May 7th: 
>>  ... Joergen Munch-Andersen, whom some of you might have met at 
>>  the ISBBC 04. Joergen is Senior Researcher at the Danish Building Research 
>>  Institute 
>>  (www.sbi.dk) and has for more than 5 years consistently been constructively 
>>  critical and he has made a huge difference towards making SBC  an accepted 
>>  building method in Denmark. 
>>  Furthermore I should say that Joergen has on several occasions shown that he 
>>  is ready to put in time. 
>> 
>>  Regards, 
>>  Lars 
>> 
>> 
>>>  I believe that what Bruce calls speculation is the way it works. In our 
>>>  report on straw bale building there is a section on experiments with straw 
>>>  bale walls with clay and lime plaster, written in English. Cement is of 
>>>  course more dangerous, but we subjected our wall to very severe moisture 
>>>  conditions for a long time, and still nothing happened with the straw. 
>>> 
>>>  The report can be found at 
>>> 
>>>  
>>><a href="<a  target="_blank" href="http://www.sbi.dk/byggeteknik/konstruktioner/serlige-konstruktioner/halmhuse/&quot";>http://www.sbi.dk/byggeteknik/konstruktioner/serlige-konstruktioner/halmhuse/&quot</a>;><a  target="_blank" href="http://www.sbi";>http://www.sbi</a>.dk/byggeteknik/konstruktioner/serlige-konstruktioner/halmhuse/</a> 
>>>  halmhuse/ 
>>>  click on download pdf to the right and go to page 46. 
>>> 
>>>  I cannot quite guess how the wood/plaster walls are constructed, 
>>>  especially where the grade D paper is placed (I assume that it is some sort 
>>>  of a vapour barrier). But if it is on the inside of the wood, rain water 
>>>  penetrating the plaster is trapped between two vapour barriers. If it is on 
>>>  the outside, moisture from the inside is absorbed by to wood. So it is 
>>>  deemed to fail. In a straw wall the mass of  
>>>the cellulose is much bigger, so 
>>>  it can absorb more water. 
>>> 
>>>  I hope this can be of help to somebody. 
>>> 
>>> 
>>>  J&#xBF;rgen Munch-Andersen 
>>>  SBi, Danish Building Research Institute 
>>>  Dr. Neergaardsvej 15 
>>>  DK-2970 H&#xBF;rsholm 
>>>  tlf &amp;#43;45 4574 2388 
>>>  fax &amp;#43;45 4586 3575 
>>>  <a href="<a  target="_blank" href="mailto:jma@...";>mailto:jma@...>jma@... 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>>  On Jul 2, 2006, at 2:23 PM, Pinyon Engineering wrote: 
>>> 
>>>>  Hi list 
>>>> 
>>>>  I have been working on revising the Detail Book that CASBA put 
>>>>  together back in 2000 
>>>> 
>>>>  I have a question:  Why can we apply cement plaster directly to bales 
>>>>  but not to wood?  aren't they both cellous? 
>>> 
>>> 
>>>  An ongoing question, subject to lots of discussion over the years. 
>>> 
>>>  Bob Platts, a very capable engineer in Canada, opened up various 
>>>  cement-plastered bale structures of up to ten years of age (as I 
>>>  recall;  it was in The Last Straw a long time ago).  He was looking for 
>>>  any sign of problems at the straw-plaster interface, and didn't find 
>>>  any -- no sign of alkaline attack (from the high pH cement), nor any 
>>>  sign of water vapor condensing on the inside of the outer plaster skin 
>>>  (as was widely expected in a heating climate like Canada -- warm moist 
>>>  air moving outwards, dropping in temperature in the wall "cavity" 
>>>  (bale), and hitting the dew point at or near the back of the plaster. 
>>> 
>>>  There should have been a problem, and there wasn't.  Maybe Bob just 
>>>  didn't look hard enough, but, as I said, he's a pretty smart guy. 
>>> 
>>>  General speculation is that straw, unlike its more dense cousin, wood, 
>>>  is able to disperse any water or condensation by capillarity, then let 
>  >> it dry by any or all of several mechanisms before decay can set in.  In 
>>>  a Canadian house in winter, for example, there can be water there for 
>>>  quite a while at the interface, but so long as it remains below 40 
>>>  degrees F or so, the microorganisms don't wake up and start to work. 
>>>  By the time it warms up enough, the water dries up. 
>>> 
>>>  That is the speculation, anyway. 
>>> 
>>>  At a wood/plaster interface, the water is trapped, and remains in place 
>>>  as the temperature rises, so the critters start a-molding.  I saw 
>>>  abundant evidence of just this behind every failed stucco wall (about 
>>>  30 of them) that I inspected after the 1989 San Francisco earthquake. 
>>>  Even where there were two layers of grade D paper as per code, water 
>>>  had gotten behind it (the paper) and there was, typically, lots of rot 
>>>  in buildings over ten years old. 
>>> 
>>>  Bruce King, PE, rotting away the time 
>>>  Director, Ecological Building Network  ( www.ecobuildnetwork.org ) 
>>>  Publisher, Green Building Press  ( www.greenbuildingpress.com ) 
>>>  209 Caledonia St. 
>>>  Sausalito, CA 94965  USA 
>>>  (415) 331-7630 
>>>  bruce@ ecobuildnetwork.org 
>>> 
>>>  ---- 
>>>  For instructions on joining, leaving, or otherwise using the GSBN list, 
>>>  send email to <a href="<a  target="_blank" href="mailto:GSBN@...";>mailto:GSBN@...>GSBN@... with HELP in the SUBJECT line. 
>>>  ---- 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>> 
> 
>---- 
>For instructions on joining, leaving, or  
>otherwise using the GSBN list, send email to  
><a href="<a  target="_blank" href="mailto:GSBN@...";>mailto:GSBN@...>GSBN@... with HELP in the  
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>---- 
 
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                    <li><a href="<a  target="_blank" href="http://groups.yahoo.com/gads;_ylc=X3oDMTJjbTFvamtzBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BF9wAzUEZ3JwSWQDODUyNjczNQRncnBzcElkAzE3MDcyMTkxMTIEc2VjA3NsbW9kBHN0aW1lAzExNjg2NDg2OTQ-?t=ms&amp;k=Business+finance+course&amp;w1=Construction+industry&amp;w2=Small+business+finance&amp;w3=Business+finance+online&amp;w4=Business+finance+training&amp;w5=Business+finance+course&amp;c=5&amp;s=144&amp;g=2&amp;.sig=sRoD7LH-CLpzM8KHORWgdw&quot";>http://groups.yahoo.com/gads;_ylc=X3oDMTJjbTFvamtzBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BF9wAzUEZ3JwSWQDODUyNjczNQRncnBzcElkAzE3MDcyMTkxMTIEc2VjA3NsbW9kBHN0aW1lAzExNjg2NDg2OTQ-?t=ms&amp;k=Business+finance+course&amp;w1=Construction+industry&amp;w2=Small+business+finance&amp;w3=Business+finance+online&amp;w4=Business+finance+training&amp;w5=Business+finance+course&amp;c=5&amp;s=144&amp;g=2&amp;.sig=sRoD7LH-CLpzM8KHORWgdw&quot</a>;>Business finance course</a></li>
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