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Re: GSBN:Re[2]: GSBN:Re[2]: GSBN:Re: GSBN:GSBN re Ecohouse



 Dear Evgeny,

 I agree with you about the problem of cars and asbestos. But a big part of the reason that the size of the problem with asbestos is so much smaller than the other pollutants you mention is that the industrial use of asbestos today is a tiny fraction of what it was thirty years ago. And of course the actual ratio of the magnitude of comparative risk would be quite difficult to determine.

 More important to me is an ongoing struggle to be working responsibly in this arena. While we need to deal with the whole spectrum of environmental risk and regeneration, and simultaneously make judgments about priorities based on the magnitude of impacts and the resources we have available to address them, we also need to guard against the tendency to see large problems that happen to be dwarfed by even larger problems, as small or insignificant. This crops up repeatedly in my own work and it's critical to be attentive both to where your time and energy and resources go in working on critical issues, and to not let things that you think are second-tier issues backslide into greater crisis because they seem less important at the moment or in comparison to other issues.

 I have watched, over many years, this tendency exert itself in the field of energy related to buildings. Operating energy over the life of a building tends to dwarf embodied energy of the materials and systems that go into the construction and maintenance of the building over that time. One is typically a very large amount of energy (and impacts) and the other is a huge amount of energy. That doesn't make the embodied energy smaller, it just makes it seem smaller and less significant - and it is not. But understanding this can open the dialogue into how we can be much more wise about the use of higher impact, higher embodied energy materials where they can have large, longer term paybacks over their own lifecycle and the building's lifecycle. This is a bigger frame of reference and more complex, but very important. I can't tell you, however, how many times I have heard energy "experts" dismiss as insignificant the embodied energy concerns many of us have for this exact lack of context.

 I feel that we're having a similar argument here, and I'm not wanting to argue at all - I'm just trying to be clear that asbestos is not a benign material and its use in buildings can pose very real and significant human health risks over long periods of time. In fact, the diseases that are caused by asbestos, except in extreme and repeated exposures or in combination with other toxic exposures like those for the workers cleaning up at the site of the World Trade Center towers, typically take many years to several decades to show up and when they do they are devastating and typically fatal.

 And I also want to say that I am in total agreement that the reason we are in this group is our strong preference to use materials that we know don't have these kinds of risks associated with their acquisition, manufacture, installation, use, or disposal.

 Warmest regards,

 David

 -----Original Message-----
 From: iaebd@...
 To: GSBN@...
 Sent: Sun, 21 Jan 2007 12:02 PM
 Subject: GSBN:Re[2]: GSBN:Re[2]: GSBN:Re: GSBN:GSBN re Ecohouse

  Dear Martin and David,

in general, i agree with you, but I stress two things:
1) today cars produce 99.9% asbest dust in cities, just in Netherlands, Belgium
or
 Germany, but nobody even speak about this,
2)if you try to calculate amount of "media noise" about asbest problem and real
amount of health demage and do the same with PVC, rock wool insulation, stirol,
and other widly use toxic materials, you will find, that proportion was
1:1000000.

Sorry, if I force you to think, what I'm fun of Est instead of West. I'm fun of
permaculture, SB, sustainability and truth.

Evgeny

-----Original Message-----
From: "moehlmann" moehlmann@...
To: "GSBN" GSBN@...
Date: Sat, 20 Jan 2007 21:54:20 +0100
Subject: Re: GSBN:Re[2]: GSBN:Re: GSBN:GSBN re Ecohouse

>
> Hi Evgeny,
>
> thank you for your information. In Western Europe removing asbest has become
> a very lucrative business in recent years. Here on the countryside of France
> people know in the meantime about the danger of dust and use still the
> advantages. You could not use asbestos at all in The Netherlands, Belgium or
> Germany. Recently I saw asbest plates over an organic farmers cheese
> storage, someone who seems to live in that lovely happy state of deep
> relaxation. I am not sure if he is delivering to UNESCO in Paris?
>
> Well about ... west wins this game... We all have been grown up in polarity
> thinking, polarity on all sorts of levels. For my part it has served its
> purpose to its limits and does it serve us anymore?
>
> Greetings from Brittany,
>
> Martin Oehlmann
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Evgen Shirokov" iaebd@...
> To: "GSBN" GSBN@...
> Sent: Saturday, January 20, 2007 8:49 AM
> Subject: GSBN:Re[2]: GSBN:Re: GSBN:GSBN re Ecohouse
>
>
> > Hi,John
> >
> > Some remarks from professional ecologist about asbestos.
> > If you use asbestos plate (asbestos is fixed by cement) - no problem (in
> fomer USSR last 60 years and till now 90% of roofs is covered by "shifer"
> (asbestos "plate") - no one case of health problem, associated with asbestos
> (instead of problem with steropor, PVC, fenol, formaldegid, etc.).
> >
> > But if you use FREE asbestos for noise reduction in ventilation system
> with pump (like UNESCO office in Paris) - it will be problem with asbestos
> dust in office. 90% of world asbestos mining was in Russia, and during last
> time of "cold war" West use the Unesco office case for stop export asbestos
> from USSR by world wide mass media company (but it was more politic, then
> ecologict reason). West win this game, but use  asbestos(mainly, from USA
> and Canada)in construction materials till now, but without "media noise"
> (asbestos is natural cheap material with unic propeties). Few years ago
> National Cort of USA (I don't know the real name this body in English,
> sorry) officially allow to use asbestos in construction materials (without
> massmedia company).
> >
> > I'm not a fun of asbestos, I prefer use clay or lime stucco, but truth is
> truth.
> >
> >
> > Evgeny Shirokov
> >
> > -----Original Message-----From: "John" jswearingen@...
> > To: "'GSBN'" GSBN@...
> > Date: Wed, 17 Jan 2007 13:08:31 -0800
> > Subject: RE: GSBN:Re: GSBN:GSBN re Ecohouse
> >
> > > <No problem with mice at all. >
> > > Isn't there a problem with asbestos, though?
> > >
> > > John
> > >
> > > John Swearingen
> > >  SKILLFUL MEANS
> > > design and construction
> > > www.skillful-means.com
> > >
> > >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: GSBN [<a  target="_blank" href="mailto:GSBN@...";>mailto:GSBN@...] On Behalf Of Evgen
> Shirokov
> > > Sent: Wednesday, January 17, 2007 12:14 PM
> > > To: GSBN
> > > Subject: GSBN:Re: GSBN:GSBN re Ecohouse
> > >
> > >
> > > Hello,
> > >
> > > we have at least 5 straw-bale houses in Belarus covered by asbestos
> > > sheeting, oldest is 4 years. No problem with mice at all. If you made
> > > asbestos sheeting (10-12mm)without holes, mice can't destroy it, i
> think, or
> > > , may be, only some special Siberian mice... From our experiance: mice
> never
> > > enter straw-bale walls, if wall have good dencity, sheeting is closer
> with
> > > bales (or use ray straw- mice never go in, in any case).
> > >
> > > Evgeny Shirokov
> > >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: "Jakub Wihan" kuba@...
> > > To: "GSBN" GSBN@...
> > > Date: Wed, 17 Jan 2007 18:03:45 +0100
> > > Subject: GSBN:GSBN re Ecohouse
> > >
> > > >
> > > > Dear all.
> > > >
> > > > Another thing to consider when discussing Sarah's straw bale house are
> > > > mice.
> > > >
> > > > There are two straw bale houses in Siberia, that have been built the
> > > > similar way as Sarah's except there was asbestos sheeting covering
> > > > unplastered straw instead of plastic on those houses. Only after one
> > > > winter the Siberians decided to take the sheeting off and plaster the
> > > > straw under it, because the amount of mice loving the space in the
> > > > winter was incredible. Check:
> > > > <a  target="_blank" href="http://www.jakubwihan.com/pdf/SBinSiberia.pdf";>http://www.jakubwihan.com/pdf/SBinSiberia.pdf</a> page 9.
> > > >
> > > > There is also one intentionally unplastered straw bale house in the
> > > > Czech Republic. I heard that the owner is troubled by mice living in
> > > > bales.
> > > >
> > > > Love
> > > >
> > > > Kuba
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > From: "Strawbalefutures" info@...
> > > > To: "'GSBN'" GSBN@...
> > > > Sent: Thursday, January 11, 2007 2:36 PM
> > > > Subject: GSBN:GSBN re Ecohouse
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > > We are more than happy to support Gernot Minke's nomination also.
> > > > >
> > > > > And on the subject of the ecohouse in London I would just like to
> > > > > say that I trained Sarah Wigglesworth and Jeremy Till in 1997 before
> > > > > they built their house, and gave them the benefit of my advice, part
> > > > > of which was not to clad
> > > > > the straw in the way that they have, so I am delighted that it is
> > > proving
> > > > > to
> > > > > work so well.
> > > > > Also they publicise their building as the first in the UK with
> planning
> > > > > permission and Building regulation approval, but this is not
> correct, as
> > > I
> > > > > helped self-builders to build their own loadbearing bungalow near
> Brecon
> > > > > in
> > > > > Wales in 1996, and this had full planning permission and Building
> > > > > regulation
> > > > > approval. It was also featured on the BBC programme Countryfile in
> early
> > > > > 1997.
> > > > >
> > > > > Best wishes
> > > > > Barbara
> > > > >
> > > > > Warning! Strawbale Building Can Seriously Transform Your Life!
> > > > >
> > > > > Amazon Nails-Strawbalefutures. A not-for-profit social enterprise.
> > > > > www.strawbalefutures.org.uk info@...
> > > > > Tel: 00 44 (0) 845 458 2173
> > > > > Hollinroyd Farm, Todmorden, W.Yorks OL14 8RJ
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > > From: GSBN [<a  target="_blank" href="mailto:GSBN@...";>mailto:GSBN@...] On Behalf Of Bruce
> > > > > King
> > > > > Sent: 10 January 2007 23:25
> > > > > To: GSBN
> > > > > Subject: Re: GSBN:Re: GSBN re: Minke
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > On Jan 10, 2007, at 2:43 PM, Frank &amp; Ingrid wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > >> Dear GSBN'ers . . . Being on the subject of new members we would
> > > > >> like to ask if a mail we send end of October 2006 in regards to a
> > > > >> nomination by us for Kermo Juerman from Estonia actually was
> > > > >> received by the list . . .
> > > > >
> > > > > Frank, I don't remember seeing it.
> > > > >
> > > > > and also support Gernot Minke's inclusion in GSBN, though I wonder
> > > > > if anyone asked him if he WANTS to be on this list.  I can't imagine
> > > > > why not, but you never know.
> > > > >
> > > > > Some of you may be interested to know that when I met Gernot a year
> > > > > ago, I asked why he had selected that photograph of the "ecohouse"
> > > > > in London for his cover.  He replied that he hadn't -- the publisher
> > > > > did.
> > > > >
> > > > > That building has, among many elements, an unplastered  straw bale
> > > > > wall protected from weather by a sheet of currogated polycarbonate
> > > > > sheeting, with an 8 cm vented cavity between.  When in London last
> > > > > November, I visited the house and talked with the architect (who
> > > > > also lives there).  I was surprised to see that the bales still look
> > > > > fresh and beautiful after several years, and appear to be providing
> > > > > insulation because air flow is stopped by a layer of hydraulic lime
> > > > > plaster on the inside surface.
> > > > >
> > > > > see
> > > > > <a  target="_blank" href="http://www.swarch.co.uk/PROJECTS/type2/Project4/sos%20information.pd";>http://www.swarch.co.uk/PROJECTS/type2/Project4/sos%20information.pd</a>
> > > > > f
> > > > >
> > > > > and  <a  target="_blank" href="http://www.swarch.co.uk/index0.html";>http://www.swarch.co.uk/index0.html</a>
> > > > >
> > > > > happy new year to all,
> > > > >
> > > > > Bruce King
> > > > > ----
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