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Re: GSBN:Re[2]: GSBN:Re[2]: GSBN:Re: GSBN:GSBN re Ecohouse



Evgeny,

It is all true what you say and surely do not want to go into an east
west discussion. It is good to read other perspectives.

I just would like to add the following perspective to the discussion. I
used to live close to Boxburg in South Africa where asbestos was mined.
I can tell you when I lived there in the early 60's there was little
concern for the effects of asbestos on miners or workers health. We
moved to the Cape quite coincidentally close to the plant of a big
factory making cement bound asbestos products like drain pipes etc.
This plant came under pressure to close down due to Health risks to its
workers and the surrounding suburbs. This was still during the
apartheid in South Africa. I wonder how many mainly black workers died
due to lung cancer at this factory. I know many hundreds have died at
the mines.

I drive a new car that has no asbestos in its brakes ok it squeaks a
little more then asbestos but I accept this down side to not using
asbestos. I suggest that if there are alternative materials with side
affects, where ever in their life cycle, we should preferably not use
them.

I often ponder the question of suitable products. I know I use products
I would actually prefer not to use but some how tradition and market
pressures force me to use such products. Not using some products means
educating clients that there are more sustainable options or myself
that I should rethink the whole problem to see if a completely
different approach offers a better solution.

All the materials you mention in your mail I preferably not use and
avoid them as much as possible. I still use too much concrete in my
foundations but have not found suitable alternatives for the building
conditions in the West Netherlands. If I can find a suitable
alternative I will use it.


Rene
On Jan 21, 2007, at 20:02, Evgen Shirokov wrote:

Dear Martin and David,

in general, i agree with you, but I stress two things:
1) today cars produce 99.9% asbest dust in cities, just in
Netherlands, Belgium or
 Germany, but nobody even speak about this,
2)if you try to calculate amount of "media noise" about asbest problem
and real amount of health demage and do the same with PVC, rock wool
insulation, stirol, and other widly use toxic materials, you will
find, that proportion was 1:1000000.

Sorry, if I force you to think, what I'm fun of Est instead of West.
I'm fun of permaculture, SB, sustainability and truth.

Evgeny

-----Original Message-----
From: "moehlmann" moehlmann@...
To: "GSBN" GSBN@...
Date: Sat, 20 Jan 2007 21:54:20 +0100
Subject: Re: GSBN:Re[2]: GSBN:Re: GSBN:GSBN re Ecohouse


Hi Evgeny,

thank you for your information. In Western Europe removing asbest has
become
a very lucrative business in recent years. Here on the countryside of
France
people know in the meantime about the danger of dust and use still the
advantages. You could not use asbestos at all in The Netherlands,
Belgium or
Germany. Recently I saw asbest plates over an organic farmers cheese
storage, someone who seems to live in that lovely happy state of deep
relaxation. I am not sure if he is delivering to UNESCO in Paris?

Well about ... west wins this game... We all have been grown up in
polarity
thinking, polarity on all sorts of levels. For my part it has served
its
purpose to its limits and does it serve us anymore?

Greetings from Brittany,

Martin Oehlmann

----- Original Message -----
From: "Evgen Shirokov" iaebd@...
To: "GSBN" GSBN@...
Sent: Saturday, January 20, 2007 8:49 AM
Subject: GSBN:Re[2]: GSBN:Re: GSBN:GSBN re Ecohouse


Hi,John

Some remarks from professional ecologist about asbestos.
If you use asbestos plate (asbestos is fixed by cement) - no problem
(in
fomer USSR last 60 years and till now 90% of roofs is covered by
"shifer"
(asbestos "plate") - no one case of health problem, associated with
asbestos
(instead of problem with steropor, PVC, fenol, formaldegid, etc.).

But if you use FREE asbestos for noise reduction in ventilation
system
with pump (like UNESCO office in Paris) - it will be problem with
asbestos
dust in office. 90% of world asbestos mining was in Russia, and
during last
time of "cold war" West use the Unesco office case for stop export
asbestos
from USSR by world wide mass media company (but it was more politic,
then
ecologict reason). West win this game, but use  asbestos(mainly, from
USA
and Canada)in construction materials till now, but without "media
noise"
(asbestos is natural cheap material with unic propeties). Few years
ago
National Cort of USA (I don't know the real name this body in English,
sorry) officially allow to use asbestos in construction materials
(without
massmedia company).

I'm not a fun of asbestos, I prefer use clay or lime stucco, but
truth is
truth.


Evgeny Shirokov

-----Original Message-----From: "John"
jswearingen@...
To: "'GSBN'" GSBN@...
Date: Wed, 17 Jan 2007 13:08:31 -0800
Subject: RE: GSBN:Re: GSBN:GSBN re Ecohouse

<No problem with mice at all. >
Isn't there a problem with asbestos, though?

John

John Swearingen
 SKILLFUL MEANS
design and construction
www.skillful-means.com


-----Original Message-----
From: GSBN [<a  target="_blank" href="mailto:GSBN@...";>mailto:GSBN@...] On Behalf Of Evgen
Shirokov
Sent: Wednesday, January 17, 2007 12:14 PM
To: GSBN
Subject: GSBN:Re: GSBN:GSBN re Ecohouse


Hello,

we have at least 5 straw-bale houses in Belarus covered by asbestos
sheeting, oldest is 4 years. No problem with mice at all. If you
made
asbestos sheeting (10-12mm)without holes, mice can't destroy it, i
think, or
, may be, only some special Siberian mice... From our experiance:
mice
never
enter straw-bale walls, if wall have good dencity, sheeting is
closer
with
bales (or use ray straw- mice never go in, in any case).

Evgeny Shirokov

-----Original Message-----
From: "Jakub Wihan" kuba@...
To: "GSBN" GSBN@...
Date: Wed, 17 Jan 2007 18:03:45 +0100
Subject: GSBN:GSBN re Ecohouse


Dear all.

Another thing to consider when discussing Sarah's straw bale house
are
mice.

There are two straw bale houses in Siberia, that have been built
the
similar way as Sarah's except there was asbestos sheeting covering
unplastered straw instead of plastic on those houses. Only after
one
winter the Siberians decided to take the sheeting off and plaster
the
straw under it, because the amount of mice loving the space in the
winter was incredible. Check:
<a  target="_blank" href="http://www.jakubwihan.com/pdf/SBinSiberia.pdf";>http://www.jakubwihan.com/pdf/SBinSiberia.pdf</a> page 9.

There is also one intentionally unplastered straw bale house in the
Czech Republic. I heard that the owner is troubled by mice living
in
bales.

Love

Kuba


----- Original Message -----
From: "Strawbalefutures" info@...
To: "'GSBN'" GSBN@...
Sent: Thursday, January 11, 2007 2:36 PM
Subject: GSBN:GSBN re Ecohouse


We are more than happy to support Gernot Minke's nomination also.

And on the subject of the ecohouse in London I would just like to
say that I trained Sarah Wigglesworth and Jeremy Till in 1997
before
they built their house, and gave them the benefit of my advice,
part
of which was not to clad
the straw in the way that they have, so I am delighted that it is
proving
to
work so well.
Also they publicise their building as the first in the UK with
planning
permission and Building regulation approval, but this is not
correct, as
I
helped self-builders to build their own loadbearing bungalow near
Brecon
in
Wales in 1996, and this had full planning permission and Building
regulation
approval. It was also featured on the BBC programme Countryfile in
early
1997.

Best wishes
Barbara

Warning! Strawbale Building Can Seriously Transform Your Life!

Amazon Nails-Strawbalefutures. A not-for-profit social enterprise.
www.strawbalefutures.org.uk info@...
Tel: 00 44 (0) 845 458 2173
Hollinroyd Farm, Todmorden, W.Yorks OL14 8RJ


-----Original Message-----
From: GSBN [<a  target="_blank" href="mailto:GSBN@...";>mailto:GSBN@...] On Behalf Of Bruce
King
Sent: 10 January 2007 23:25
To: GSBN
Subject: Re: GSBN:Re: GSBN re: Minke


On Jan 10, 2007, at 2:43 PM, Frank &amp; Ingrid wrote:

Dear GSBN'ers . . . Being on the subject of new members we would
like to ask if a mail we send end of October 2006 in regards to a
nomination by us for Kermo Juerman from Estonia actually was
received by the list . . .

Frank, I don't remember seeing it.

and also support Gernot Minke's inclusion in GSBN, though I wonder
if anyone asked him if he WANTS to be on this list.  I can't
imagine
why not, but you never know.

Some of you may be interested to know that when I met Gernot a
year
ago, I asked why he had selected that photograph of the "ecohouse"
in London for his cover.  He replied that he hadn't -- the
publisher
did.

That building has, among many elements, an unplastered  straw bale
wall protected from weather by a sheet of currogated polycarbonate
sheeting, with an 8 cm vented cavity between.  When in London last
November, I visited the house and talked with the architect (who
also lives there).  I was surprised to see that the bales still
look
fresh and beautiful after several years, and appear to be
providing
insulation because air flow is stopped by a layer of hydraulic
lime
plaster on the inside surface.

see
<a  target="_blank" href="http://www.swarch.co.uk/PROJECTS/type2/Project4/";>http://www.swarch.co.uk/PROJECTS/type2/Project4/</a>
sos%20information.pd
f

and  <a  target="_blank" href="http://www.swarch.co.uk/index0.html";>http://www.swarch.co.uk/index0.html</a>

happy new year to all,

Bruce King
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