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GSBN: Digest for 6/2/07



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-> GSBN:Re: Wind loads and racking
     by Darrel DeBoer Darrel@...
-> Re: GSBN:Re: Wind loads and racking
     by Andrew Webb design@...
-> GSBN archives seem to be incomplete
     by Derek Roff derek@...
-> Re: GSBN archives seem to be incomplete
     by billc billc_lists@...
-> RE: GSBN:"squaring" & Thermal dipping
     by "Rikki  Nitzkin" rikkinitzkin@...


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Date: 31 May 2007 23:56:49 -0500
From: Darrel DeBoer Darrel@...
Subject: GSBN:Re: Wind loads and racking

Andrew,
Here in California, it seems every engineer brings yet a different take
on the detailing possibilities.  As an architect to whom all fingers
point when costs rise, I'm always looking for the best "bang for the
buck" esp. for hidden places it's hard to convince the client to spend
money.

I've become a believer in soft mesh:  fishing net in particular inside
and outside the wall.  Then, polypropylene string to tie the two
together, placed between lifts about half a meter apart.  Ideally, you
dig a trench, lay the mesh in, fill with gravel, set a couple lifts of
gravel bags above grade, build your wall and pull the mesh up as you go
and attach the mesh to the top plate (we've been using box beams).
There may be some plaster cracking as things settle, but avoiding
concrete altogether is ideal if we're really serious about having an
impact someday.  It's not hard to do, and I can't imagine this assembly
failing.

Stop me if you've heard this before.

Darrel DeBoer

Andrew Webb wrote:

Thanks
for that Derek,

I didn't mean to sound too polite ;)  There is so much work around here

that it's hard to get anyone to spend much time thinking about

out-of-the-ordinary details, especially for housing; so, I'm giving him

the benefit of the doubt.   He has seen the In- and Out of Plane tests

and isn't satisfied.  I have given him copies of John Zhang and Mike

Faine's reports too.  I had suggested Bruce's new book to him, so we'll

see how it goes.  I'll look into the welded wire mesh more closely.

All the best,

Andrew

Derek Roff wrote:

    
I am confident that this engineer has put a
lot of thought into this and

his concerns are justified.

I appreciate the politeness of your summation above, but I think the
rest

of your message brings this into question.

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Date: 1 Jun 2007 00:48:59 -0500
From: Andrew Webb design@...
Subject: Re: GSBN:Re: Wind loads and racking

Hi Darrel,
Sounds interesting.  What compression system do you use with that
detail?  I presume you would fix the mesh to the top plates after
compression?  In relation to the Out of Plane tests, is your mesh
similar to Cintoflex C plastic mesh?

Most of the houses I've designed have been raised on posts due to the
topography.  These are usually 75 shs galv. steel due to termites and
bracing capacity.  The bale walls are then built on a timber-framed
platform.  This means you have quite a few pin joints to brace and/or
turn into fixed joints.  Your mesh detail might still be of benefit but
I wouldn't get the advantage of structural homogeneity right down to the
footings.  That said, I don't need to - from floor frame down is
more-or-less standard construction and bracing.

Food for thought, thanks.

- -AW



Darrel DeBoer wrote:
> Andrew,
> ...
> I've become a believer in soft mesh:  fishing net in particular inside
> and outside the wall.
>



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Date: 1 Jun 2007 07:50:52 -0500
From: Derek Roff derek@...
Subject: GSBN archives seem to be incomplete

The monthly help file arrived this morning, and I decided to take a look at
the archives for messages from the last week.  The help file says:

"Archives of recent discussions (since November 2002) are at
<a  target="_blank" href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/GSBN-Greenbuilder/";>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/GSBN-Greenbuilder/</a> . "

I used that link, and got to the GSBN archive.  The archive contains three
messages since January 12th, 2007.  I know that there have been four
messages posted within the last twelve hours, and I would guess there have
been a couple of dozen between now and last January.  Something seems to be
broken.

Does anyone know another way to look for archived messages?

Derek


Derek Roff
Language Learning Center
Ortega Hall 129, MSC03-2100
University of New Mexico
Albuquerque, NM 87131-0001
505/277-7368, fax 505/277-3885
Internet: derek@...



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Date: 1 Jun 2007 10:45:59 -0500
From: billc billc_lists@...
Subject: Re: GSBN archives seem to be incomplete

Yes, the archives are definitely broken.

It's on my list of things to fix, but it's fairly low on the priority
list to be honest.

I have copies of every message ever sent, and would be happy to
forward you the digests for the past week or so, or a specific day.



At 7:32 AM -0600 6/1/07, Derek Roff wrote:
>The monthly help file arrived this morning, and I decided to take a
>look at the archives for messages from the last week.  The help file
>says:
>
>"Archives of recent discussions (since November 2002) are at
><a  target="_blank" href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/GSBN-Greenbuilder/";>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/GSBN-Greenbuilder/</a> . "
>
>I used that link, and got to the GSBN archive.  The archive contains
>three messages since January 12th, 2007.  I know that there have
>been four messages posted within the last twelve hours, and I would
>guess there have been a couple of dozen between now and last
>January.  Something seems to be broken.
>
>Does anyone know another way to look for archived messages?
>
>Derek
>
>
>Derek Roff
>Language Learning Center
>Ortega Hall 129, MSC03-2100
>University of New Mexico
>Albuquerque, NM 87131-0001
>505/277-7368, fax 505/277-3885
>Internet: derek@...


- --
Bill Christensen
<<a  target="_blank" href="http://sustainablesources.com/contact/";>http://sustainablesources.com/contact/</a>>

Green Building Professionals Directory: <<a  target="_blank" href="http://directory.sustainablesources.com";>http://directory.sustainablesources.com</a>>
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Straw Bale Registry: <<a  target="_blank" href="http://sbregistry.sustainablesources.com/";>http://sbregistry.sustainablesources.com/</a>>
Books/videos/software: <<a  target="_blank" href="http://bookstore.sustainablesources.com/";>http://bookstore.sustainablesources.com/</a>>


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Date: 1 Jun 2007 12:50:39 -0500
From: "Rikki  Nitzkin" rikkinitzkin@...
Subject: RE: GSBN:"squaring" &amp; Thermal dipping

I think the most important thing is to get the slip onto and into the bale
BEFORE compression because it is easier to penetrate.  Also having the clay
on before you continue with the next row of bales stabilizes the wall enough
that almost no pinning (external or internal) is necessary.  

Rikki Nitzkin
Aulas, Lleida, Espana
rikkinitzkin@...
(0034)657 33 51 62 
www.casasdepaja.com (Red de Construccion con Balas de Paja)
 
> -----Mensaje original-----
> De: GSBN [<a  target="_blank" href="mailto:GSBN@...";>mailto:GSBN@...] En nombre de Mark Schueneman
> Enviado el: sabado, 26 de mayo de 2007 2:30
> Para: GSBN
> Asunto: Re: GSBN:"squaring" &amp; Thermal dipping
> 
> Yet a couple more methods of squaring ends for a flat fit;
> 
> Curtis Scheib, who lives here in Colorado, showed me his method; he cuts
> about a 9 inch long 2x6 and wraps it with expanded metal lath and uses it
> as a sander on both ends...squares them up rather well in short order.
> Works on beer bellies too, a bit more messy. I showed this to some folks
> at
> a work party and the next weekend when I returned they had several
> variations on this system; they fashioned expanded metal lath to the
> bottom
> of a Darby (3-4 foot long wood float with double handles) and rubbed the
> ends or just wrap any dimension of lumber that comfortably fits the users
> hand with the lath and fasten with staples. I would say that 15 seconds or
> less of some vigorous rub-a-dub on each end is all it takes.
> 
> I've seen others here just use a chainsaw to cut along the end twine for
> square ends. This scares me that you could, and sometimes do, cut the
> twine
> and lose the bale. Those who use this method on a regular basis have
> gotten
> quite good, cut no twine and have bale ends that fit together like bales
> stacked on edge, almost.
> 
> On the dipping issue...has anyone ever used one of the small hand held
> sprayers, we call them tirolessa sprayers. I've never 'dipped' but the
> results sound similar to this sprayer and saves lifting the heavy bales
> (important for anyone over a certain age). You simply mix your clay rich
> slip mix, pour some into a wheelbarrow or bucket, dip some mix into the
> small hopper of the hand held sprayer and blast it onto the bales. With
> two
> worker types mixing and feeding the one operator of the sprayer you can
> cover a lot of wall in a day. One thing I've never done though is the
> 'whacking the plank' method after spraying for straightening and
> compacting
> Andy Horn speaks of. We generally let the pressure of the air blasting the
> slip onto the bales dry as is, which gives the scratch coat a good bonding
> surface. This method seems to work rather well/simply but I will try the
> plank whack and trowel.
> 
> The tirolessa sprayer (weapon of mass construction) can be found at
> <a  target="_blank" href="http://www.northcoast.com/~tms/tiro.htm";>http://www.northcoast.com/~tms/tiro.htm</a> for $215 US. Or, throw in your
> handy TLS CD and see how to make your own small sprayer, instructions in
> TLS 39, pages. 17 &amp; 18.
> 
> Mark 'been quiet until today' Schueneman
> Colorado Straw Bale Association
> 303-444-6027 hm./of.
> 303-591-9841 cell
> 
> 
> 
> > [Original Message]
> > From: Rene Dalmeijer rene.dalmeijer@...
> > To: GSBN GSBN@...
> > Date: 5/25/2007 10:40:26 AM
> > Subject: Re: GSBN:"squaring" round corners
> >
> > Rikki,
> >
> > I first saw redistribution of the rounded bale end doen bij Lars Keller
> > at the ISBBC in Australie. I can't remember his exact technique based
> > on his method though I developed a technique for really tight bales
> > using a claw hammer. You ram the claw of the hammer in the "belly" thus
> > yanking a wad of straw downwards roll the bale over to the other side
> > and repeat the procedure this works really fast and is very effective
> > in getting a square bale. It does not work for floppy bales.
> >
> > Rene
> > On May 25, 2007, at 13:07, Rikki Nitzkin wrote:
> >
> > > Barbara Jones taught me a method which makes a huge difference in
> > > getting a
> > > tight fit between bales:
> > >
> > > Before placing the bale, you take the "belly" part at the end and with
> > > a
> > > pulling/twisting/pushing motion re-distribute the straw up and down
> > > the end
> > > of the bale.  This gives you a relatively flat surface which makes a
> > > tighter
> > > fit and a lot less stuffing.
> > >
> > > Rikki Nitzkin
> > > Aulas, Lleida, Espana
> > > rikkinitzkin@...
> > > (0034)657 33 51 62
> > > www.casasdepaja.com (Red de Construccion con Balas de Paja)
> > >
> > >
> > >> -----Mensaje original-----
> > >> De: GSBN [<a  target="_blank" href="mailto:GSBN@...";>mailto:GSBN@...] En nombre de Andre de
> > >> Bouter
> > >> Enviado el: viernes, 25 de mayo de 2007 8:17
> > >> Para: GSBN
> > >> Asunto: Re: GSBN:Re Thermal Properties of Straw Bale Walls
> > >>
> > >> During a BWB workshop Ari Gore shared yet another little improvement
> > >> for
> > >> getting rid of the holes between the bales layed flat as the bales
> > >> tend
> > >> to have rounded corners on the up- and bottom side. Simply lay a
> > >> handful
> > >> of straw on the joints between the bales before you place the next
> > >> row.
> > >>
> > >>  ______ * _____ * _____ * _____  * _____
> > >> |______ ||______ ||______ ||______ ||______ |
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> Also place a handful next to the bale before placing the next one.
> > >>
> > >> |______ |
> > >>                *
> > >>
> > >> A lot easier than pushing the straw (or straw-clay) in once the wall
> > >> is
> > >> up.
> > >>
> > >> And you'll notice that bales on edge (or on end for that matter)
> > >> match
> > >> much better (the rounded corners are now on the surface and easily
> > >> plastered.
> > >>
> > >> Bye,
> > >> Andre
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> billc a ecrit :
> > >>> At 8:08 AM +1000 5/25/07, John Glassford wrote:
> > >>>>
> > >>>> We prefer to build them in the raw and do a solid pre-compression
> > >>>> and
> > >>>> then fill any gaps with a cob mix.
> > >>>
> > >>> Since it can be difficult to do gap-filling in the first place,
> would
> > >>> it make better sense to stuff and *then* compress, allowing the
> straw
> > >>> to mold into the cob?
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>> --
> > >>> Bill Christensen
> > >>> billc@...
> > >>>
> > >>> Green Building Professionals Directory:
> > >>> <<a  target="_blank" href="http://directory.sustainablesources.com";>http://directory.sustainablesources.com</a>>
> > >>> Sustainable Building Calendar:
> > >>> <<a  target="_blank" href="http://SustainableSources.com/calendar/";>http://SustainableSources.com/calendar/</a>>
> > >>> Green Real Estate: <<a  target="_blank" href="http://SustainableSources.com/realestate/";>http://SustainableSources.com/realestate/</a>>
> > >>> Straw Bale Registry: <<a  target="_blank" href="http://sbregistry.sustainablesources.com/";>http://sbregistry.sustainablesources.com/</a>>
> > >>> Books/videos/software: <<a  target="_blank" href="http://bookstore.sustainablesources.com/";>http://bookstore.sustainablesources.com/</a>>
> > >>> ----
> > >>> For instructions on joining, leaving, or otherwise using the GSBN
> > >>> list, send email to GSBN@...HELP in the
> > >>> SUBJECT line.  ----
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> John Glassford a ecrit :
> > >>> Good idea Bill and in effect that what happens but with good
> > >>> preparation of each bale and good bales in the first place this is
> > >>> not
> > >>> such a problem gaps that is.  Also the pre-compression using all
> > >>> thread as per Steens or the hybrid method seen here is the way to
> go:
> > >>>
> > >>> <a  target="_blank" href="http://www.glassford.com.au/Custom_meredith.htm";>http://www.glassford.com.au/Custom_meredith.htm</a>
> > >>>
> > >>> The rods on each side of the wall every 1.8 metres work a treat and
> > >>> are much easer and stronger than any other method that I have used
> > >>> including fencing wire, gripples and straps of all types.
> > >>>
> > >>> Just my two bobs worth mate.
> > >>>
> > >>> Kind regards
> > >>> El Lupo
> > >>> Huff 'n' Puff Constructions
> > >>> <a  target="_blank" href="http://www.glassford.com.au/";>http://www.glassford.com.au/</a>
> > >>> Mount Kilimanjaro Climb 28/8/07
> > >>> <a  target="_blank" href="http://www.coolamonrotary.com/kili/";>http://www.coolamonrotary.com/kili/</a>
> > >>> 61 2 6927 6027
> > >>> ----
> > >>> For instructions on joining, leaving, or otherwise using the GSBN
> > >>> list, send email to GSBN@...HELP in the
> > >>> SUBJECT line.  ----
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >> ----
> > >> For instructions on joining, leaving, or otherwise using the GSBN
> > >> list,
> > >> send email to GSBN@...HELP in the SUBJECT
> > >> line.
> > >> ----
> > >
> > > ----
> > > For instructions on joining, leaving, or otherwise using the GSBN
> > > list, send email to GSBN@...HELP in the
> > > SUBJECT line.
> > > ----
> > >
> >
> > ----
> > For instructions on joining, leaving, or otherwise using the GSBN list,
> send email to GSBN@...HELP in the SUBJECT line.
> > ----
> >
> 
> 




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