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Re: [SB-r-us] Fwd: GSBN: re: Lime Plaster Problems



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            <p>Rob et al, 
 
You're certainly welcome to post GSBN info to the general public. 
 
For a fair while we had GSBN posts archived online so everyone could  
see them, but the archiving process broke some time back and I  
haven't had time to fix it.  I do intend to get all the GSBN archives  
online at some point and get it all automated and happy again, so  
everyone can keep up with what's going on elsewhere in the world. 
 
Can't do it right now though  - getting ready to go to the Natural  
Building Colloquium in Kerrville Tx for 10 days. 
 
At 1:15 PM -0400 10/17/07, Rob Tom wrote: 
>I noticed a recent thread (or at least the subject headings of) on lime  
>plasters here and recalled that there has been an unusually informative  
>and  somewhat lengthy thread on the same subject on the GSBN List recently  
>as well. (Postings to the GSBN List are more typically quite brief ). 
> 
>Unfortunately, membership to the GSBN List is restricted so the audience  
>is limited to a couple or few dozen people, so not many eyes will have  
>gotten to see and benefit from the information presented. 
> 
>At the risk of being excommunicated/shunned/tarred &amp;amp; feathered from GSBN,  
>I've excerpted a posting by Beel (wihout his permisssion) to that thread  
>and copied it below.  (I ain't a-scared of Beel beating me up for doing so  
>'cause he's always down in Nogales terrorising the locals there, simply  
>because it's closer than Kanata.) 
> 
>I theenk that non-members can read the GSBN List archives that are posted  
>at some YahooGroup address but non-members cannot post messages to it.  
>You'll have to pester another Bill (as in Wild Bill-bob Christensen) for  
>info as to how to go about that. 
> 
>And I'll take this opportunity to apoligise to Beel now for posting in a  
>previous message : 
> 
>>  is that the (video) where Beel Beel drinks an entire bottle of fermented  
>>  mescal 
>>  juice and then hijacks a buckboard wagon from an unsuspecting Old 
>>  Order Mennonite and heads into Nogales to terorise the locals ? 
> 
>Yes, that was a "highly ridiculous assertion". I left out an "r" in  
>"terrorise". 
>Sory. Eh ? 
> 
> 
>>  -----Original Message----- 
>>  From: Athena &amp;amp; Bill Steen 
>>  To: GSBN 
>>  Sent: Sun, Oct 7 12:11 PM 
>>  Subject: Re: GSBN:Re: Lime plaster problems 
>> 
>>  I'll plead busy as well and before I made any comments I wanted to 
>>  make sure they would be somewhat thorough. There are a few things 
>>  that have become evident to me over the years when it comes to lime 
>>  over clay plaster. In mho I would have to say that results are 
>>  unpredictable and undependable. I'm not saying it can't or doesn't 
>>  work, but rather that outcomes vary widely. David Bainbridge 
>>  mentioned in his earlier post the Getty people in Los Angeles as a 
>>  resource. I've made it a point to talk with them every few years 
>>  about lime plaster and in particular their work with prickly pear 
>>  cactus gel. Anyhow in one of the last conversations we had they 
>>  told me that there was a growing sentiment amidst the conservation 
>>  community that the use of lime plaster over earth surfaces was not 
>>  such a good idea. They mentioned that although lime had better 
>>  permeability than cement and allowed the earth to dry better when 
>>  wet, it was still too different from an earthen substrate for it to 
>>  work dependably. 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>>  My experience basically says the same thing. For me the whole issue 
>>  comes down to what type of earth plaster is underneath. Apparently 
>>  some are much better than others and just what all the variables 
>>  are I can't say. I think it will take some time to get a better 
>>  grasp on it. Clearly I would suggest that if the substrate has a 
>>  lot of clay there is a likely possibility that if water is absorbed 
>>  through the lime plaster and passed on to the earth substrate then 
>>  obviously the clay will expand and have a tendency to push the lime 
>>  plaster away therefore causing the two to separate. If the earth 
>>  plaster is weak then the connection will break down over time. So 
>>  in short I guess what I'm saying is that the earth plaster has to 
>  > be of a really good quality for any chance of success. It needs to 
>>  be strong and not have an overly high content of expansive clay. 
>>  Another very important piece is that the earthen plaster substrate 
>>  must be thoroughly dry as earth plasters shrink when drying. If 
>>  that process is not complete the earth will pull away from the lime 
>>  plaster and leave it hanging in the air. And as others have pointed 
>>  out the surface needs to be extremely well keyed for the lime to 
>>  adhere. I don't think you can under-do that aspect. Additional 
>>  measures like that of placing sharp jagged stones in the plaster 
>>  would also help such as the practice of "rahuela" used in Mexico 
>>  where stones are placed in the mortar joint between adobes. 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>>  I think it was David that also mentioned the Japanesete We have 
>>  worked closely with a pair of Japanese plasterers over recent years 
>>  and it is important to note that the Japanese approach relies 
>>  heavily on use of a glue when mixing what they call "Shikkui." 
>>  Traditionally rice flour was used but was replaced with seaweed gel 
>>  during a time of food shortages. In general I would say that their 
>>  plastering practices are far more meticulous than anything I've 
>>  seen in this part of the world and in the words of the best 
>>  plasterer from there that I can think of, "there is great 
>>  difficulty in the connection between the two coats and at best it 
>>  does not last for a very long time." 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>>  Having said all this I will say that my comments apply primarily to 
>>  exterior finishes and I've not yet experienced any problems with 
>>  interior or protected locations. But I should add that we also 
>>  typically include a percentage of some glue material in the lime 
>>  plaster. 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>>  John Glassford suggested the use of lime/clay as an alternative and 
>>  I think that it can be a very good one. Much here depends upon the 
>>  reaction between the clay soil and the lime. Over the years I've 
>>  watched varying reactions, some soils produce exceptional results, 
>>  others marginal. I recently cornered Harry Francis who once worked 
>>  for the American Lime Association while we happened to be together 
>>  recently in Washington DC. I told him that the using pH as an 
>>  indicator of the right type of mix was not proving true all of the 
>>  time. Like he always does Harry went home and searched his 
>>  extensive resources and just emailed me a paper that addresses some 
>>  of those variables particularly soils with high levels of potassium 
>>  and sodium carbonates. I haven't had time to really absorb the 
>>  content, but if any of you want a copy I would be happy to forward it. 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>>  I've already said more than I had intended, but to sum it up I 
>>  would not suggest that we recommend the use of lime plaster over 
>>  earthen substrates as a general practice. I would suggest that it 
>>  be adopted only after some testing and experimentation has been 
>>  done and with a warning that the results are always guaranteed. 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>>  Bill 
>> 
>>  On Oct 7, 2007, at 7:10 AM, Rikki Nitzkin wrote: 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>>>  Sorry to chime in so late...been busy. Its just that I haven't 
>>>  seen > anywhere 
>> 
>>>  that in the responses to remind Andy that it is very important to 
>>>  > wet down 
>> 
>>>  as well as scratch the base layer of plaster before applying a new 
>>>  > coat, and 
>> 
>>>  if the material is different (lime on clay in this case) really 
>>>  rub > the 
>> 
>>>  first bit in so it binds well. 
>> 
>>> 
>> 
>>>  Hope your problem has been solved. 
>> 
>>> 
>> 
>>>  Rikki Nitzkin 
>> 
>>>  Aulas, Lleida, Espana 
>> 
>>>  <a href="<a  target="_blank" href="mailto:rikkinitzkin@...";>mailto:rikkinitzkin@...>rikkinitzkin@... 
>> 
>>>  (0034)657 33 51 62 
>> 
>>>  www.casasdepaja.com (Red de Construccion con Balas de Paja) 
> 
>[snip] 
> 
> 
> 
>-- 
>=== * === 
>Rob Tom 
>Kanata, Ontario, Canada 
>< A r c h i L o g i c  at chaffY a h o o  dot  c a > 
>manually winnow the chaff from my edress in your reply 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>Yahoo! Groups Links 
> 
> 
> 
 
--  
Bill Christensen 
<<a href="<a  target="_blank" href="http://sustainablesources.com/contact/&quot";>http://sustainablesources.com/contact/&quot</a>;><a  target="_blank" href="http://greenbuilder";>http://greenbuilder</a>.com/contact/</a>> 
 
Don't miss October's Natural Building Colloquium:  
<<a href="<a  target="_blank" href="http://naturalbuildingtexas.org&quot";>http://naturalbuildingtexas.org&quot</a>;><a  target="_blank" href="http://naturalbuild";>http://naturalbuild</a>ingtexas.org</a>> 
 
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