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GSBN: Digest for 10/17/07



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-> Earth plasters
     by "Andy Horn" andy@...
-> Re: *** PROBABLY SPAM *** GSBN:Re:Tom Rijven's book available in the USA?
     by "Andre_de_Bouter" forum@...
-> Re: *** PROBABLY SPAM *** Re: GSBN: Earth plasters
     by "Andre_de_Bouter" forum@...
-> Taddelakt 
     by "Andre_de_Bouter" forum@...
-> Re: GSBN:Earth plasters
     by jswearingen@...
-> Re: GSBN:Taddelakt 
     by Athena & Bill Steen absteen@...
-> Re: GSBN:Taddelakt
     by jswearingen@...
-> Re: GSBN:Re: Historic Nebraska Buildings and Railroad Workers
     by Catherine Wanek cat@...
-> Re: GSBN:Re: Historic Nebraska Buildings and Railroad Workers
     by Joyce Coppinger jc10508@...
-> Re: GSBN:Earth plasters
     by "Lorenzo Robles" lorobles55@...
-> Re: GSBN: Earth plasters
     by Graeme North ecodesign@...


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 17 Oct 2007 03:16:13 -0500
From: "Andy Horn" andy@...
Subject: Earth plasters

Does anyone know about the Moroccan takalak plasters, which are apparently
used in bathrooms? I believe they are supposedly used in waterproofing of
baths and showers too?
Andy

- -----Original Message-----
From: GSBN [<a  target="_blank" href="mailto:GSBN@...";>mailto:GSBN@...] On Behalf Of Graeme North
Sent: 11 October 2007 09:32 PM
To: GSBN
Subject: Re: GSBN: Earth plasters

> Hi Mark - I1ve not found mould on earth plasters to be a problem - I have
seen
> darker surface 3patches2 on fermented earthen material eg mud bricks or
cob
> where the  mix had sat for a while (weeks) before using and had fermented
a
> bit, but I do not think these darker patches that arise from this are
mould.
> Mould may occur if the walls are very slow to dry and/or are not fully dry
> beneath earth plasters, or else the building does not have sufficient
eaves
> and moisture keeps the wall wet.
> I1ve got earthen plasters (with paper pulp) in my own bathroom where they
get
> really steamy at times, (from showering) which not only dry out really
> quickly, but also suck moisture out of towels and wet floors keeping the
room
> really dry - there is no mould after three or more years of this, even
though
> we live in a wet and humid climate - virtually never less than 60%, often
well
> over 80% - 90%. 
> 
> cheers
> 
> Graeme
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Graeme,
> 
> Thanks for your submission and insight. The first I'd heard of
'fermenting'
> straw (or paper) was from some friends from NZ, Sven and Sarah Johnston,
> who hosted a workshop and a guest presenter was Tom Raven, the colorful
> Frenchman, who uses a fermented mix, like bakers use a yeast starter for
> baking breads. Tom swears by this fermenting and concurs with you on added
> durability of the earth plasters. The Johnstons found they had some mold
> issues, maybe as a result of this mix tho. Have you experience any issues
> with molds?




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----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 17 Oct 2007 03:30:06 -0500
From: "Andre_de_Bouter" forum@...
Subject: Re: *** PROBABLY SPAM *** GSBN:Re:Tom Rijven's book available in the
USA?

Hello Judy, Matts,...

I've forwarded Catherines proposal to sell Tom's book in the USA to
Goutte de Sable.
When I get more info I'll let you know.

Have a nice day,
Andr#233#



MattsMyhrman@...#233#crit :
> Andre says:
>
>
>> Tom's bi-lingual book is both in French and English
>>
>
> Matts asks, does anyone know where it is available in the USA?  Catherine?
>
>
>
> **************************************
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----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 17 Oct 2007 03:34:23 -0500
From: "Andre_de_Bouter" forum@...
Subject: Re: *** PROBABLY SPAM *** Re: GSBN: Earth plasters

Hello,

I'd say that if your plaster molds (after it initally dried out) you
have a moisture problem in your building. Borax might deal with the
mold, but would not deal with the source of the problem.

Best regards,
Andr#233# - what's that white powder doin' here? - de Bouter


MattsMyhrman@...#233#crit :
> In a message dated 10/15/2007 6:45:11 AM US Mountain Standard Time, Sven
> Johnston writes:
>
>
>> By the way, this issue is on a wall which is in the living area and spans
>> into the dining area of the home.  There will be a wood stove installed
>> within a couple of feet of this wall.
>>
>> Does anyone have a suggestion for a finish coat?  Would it be good
insurance
>> to use Borax in the final earth plaster?
>>
>
> I tried using a saturated solution of borax and boric acid to mix up earth
> plaster, hoping that it might work to make the plaster unpalatable to
termites.
> It so weakened the plaster that I never went further with the experiment.
> Maybe too much of the chemicals in the mix so that the bond between the clay
> particles was comprimised?
>
>
> **************************************
>  See what's new
> at 
>
>
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----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 17 Oct 2007 05:29:44 -0500
From: "Andre_de_Bouter" forum@...
Subject: Taddelakt 

Hello Andy,

We (my wife, the kids and I) are driving down to Marakech (Tadelakt
heaven) this november where I'll finally be taking a tadelakt workshop.
The basic principle is using their local lime (CL in Europe =Calcic Lime
= non hyraulic) which is not completely pure nor completely 'cooked',
just as the old limes Bill Steen mentioned.
This allows for the lime to be used pure (with pigment) with only minor
cracking.
A second thin layer is applied, which is hard troweled when leather
hard. This closes the minor cracks.
Then green soap is applied with a flat stone.
A mason can do about 4m<= per day, which makes it quite costly compared
to tiles etc.
It is traditionally used in Morocco for covering the Hammam's which were
made of un stabilized earth.
There is only one word that describes the end product : Sumptuous!
There are recepies that copy this effect with other limes. In general
marble dust (!) is used to avoid excessive cracking and to keep the soft
surface. Those who have experience tell me that nothing really is as
beautiful as the real stuff. although I agree there is a difference, the
'falsifications' are also effective and beautiful).

Tadelakt is watertight (bathtubs and the like can be made with it) but
does not breath. So it will not have the advantage of absorbing the
moisture and releasing it later as earth plaster has. I intend to use it
in the shower and for the sink, but will not cover the rest of the
earthen plaster in that room. I agree with Graeme that earth holds up
very well by itself. We have our bath in our 'Master' ;-) bedroom. Our 2
kids also use it often (in Europe having 2 bathrooms is an exception).
We never have even the slightest condensation on our windows nor on the
mirror.

A beautiful (french) book on the subject is:
Le tadelakt, un d#233#cor #224# la chaux by Sol#232#ne Delahousse ISBN
2-7072-0476-5
Look at Amazon to see the cover (but order in your local bookstore ;-)
<a  target="_blank" href="http://www.amazon.fr/tadelakt-d%C3%A9cor-%C3%A0-chaux/dp/2707204765";>http://www.amazon.fr/tadelakt-d%C3%A9cor-%C3%A0-chaux/dp/2707204765</a>

Bill Steen showed us during #224# workhop near Santa F#233# how he makes
something visually similar with kaolin clay. He hard troweled a very
thin layer of leather hard pure clay. This also gave a very very very
soft/slick surface, but it is not intended to be watertight.

Plaster on,
Andr#233#

Just to make you all green with envy : this is where we will be for the
Taddelakt workshop :
<a  target="_blank" href="http://www.riadzinoun.com/tadelakt-stage-anglais.html";>http://www.riadzinoun.com/tadelakt-stage-anglais.html</a>
<a  target="_blank" href="http://www.riadzinoun.com/riad_visite1.html";>http://www.riadzinoun.com/riad_visite1.html</a>


Andy Horn a #233#crit :
> Does anyone know about the Moroccan takalak plasters, which are apparently
> used in bathrooms? I believe they are supposedly used in waterproofing of
> baths and showers too?
> Andy
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: GSBN [<a  target="_blank" href="mailto:GSBN@...";>mailto:GSBN@...] On Behalf Of Graeme North
> Sent: 11 October 2007 09:32 PM
> To: GSBN
> Subject: Re: GSBN: Earth plasters
>
>
>> Hi Mark #173# I#185#ve not found mould on earth plasters to be a problem
#173# I have
>>
> seen
>
>> darker surface >=patches<= on fermented earthen material eg mud bricks or
>>
> cob
>
>> where the  mix had sat for a while (weeks) before using and had fermented
>>
> a
>
>> bit, but I do not think these darker patches that arise from this are
>>
> mould.
>
>> Mould may occur if the walls are very slow to dry and/or are not fully dry
>> beneath earth plasters, or else the building does not have sufficient
>>
> eaves
>
>> and moisture keeps the wall wet.
>> I#185#ve got earthen plasters (with paper pulp) in my own bathroom where
they
>>
> get
>
>> really steamy at times, (from showering) which not only dry out really
>> quickly, but also suck moisture out of towels and wet floors keeping the
>>
> room
>
>> really dry #173# there is no mould after three or more years of this, even
>>
> though
>
>> we live in a wet and humid climate #173# virtually never less than 60%,
often
>>
> well
>
>> over 80% - 90%.
>>
>> cheers
>>
>> Graeme
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Graeme,
>>
>> Thanks for your submission and insight. The first I'd heard of
>>
> 'fermenting'
>
>> straw (or paper) was from some friends from NZ, Sven and Sarah Johnston,
>> who hosted a workshop and a guest presenter was Tom Raven, the colorful
>> Frenchman, who uses a fermented mix, like bakers use a yeast starter for
>> baking breads. Tom swears by this fermenting and concurs with you on added
>> durability of the earth plasters. The Johnstons found they had some mold
>> issues, maybe as a result of this mix tho. Have you experience any issues
>> with molds?
>>
>
>
>
>
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> Checked by AVG Free Edition.
> Version: 7.5.488 / Virus Database: 269.14.1/1050 - Release Date: 2007/10/04
> 05:03 PM
>
>
> No virus found in this outgoing message.
> Checked by AVG Free Edition.
> Version: 7.5.488 / Virus Database: 269.14.8/1064 - Release Date: 2007/10/11
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----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 17 Oct 2007 08:55:24 -0500
From: jswearingen@...
Subject: Re: GSBN:Earth plasters

As I understand it, these are not plasters, but an oil compound rubbed into
lime plasters while still curing, that have a chemical reaction with the
plaster making it waterproof.

You can get it already made-up, or find someone to give you a formula.
Michel Courvreux has some in his shop: transmineral.usa.

John

On 10/17/07, Andy Horn andy@... wrote:
>
> Does anyone know about the Moroccan takalak plasters, which are apparently
> used in bathrooms? I believe they are supposedly used in waterproofing of
> baths and showers too?
> Andy
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: GSBN [<a  target="_blank" href="mailto:GSBN@...";>mailto:GSBN@...] On Behalf Of Graeme North
> Sent: 11 October 2007 09:32 PM
> To: GSBN
> Subject: Re: GSBN: Earth plasters
>
> > Hi Mark - I1ve not found mould on earth plasters to be a problem - I
> have
> seen
> > darker surface 3patches2 on fermented earthen material eg mud bricks or
> cob
> > where the  mix had sat for a while (weeks) before using and had
> fermented
> a
> > bit, but I do not think these darker patches that arise from this are
> mould.
> > Mould may occur if the walls are very slow to dry and/or are not fully
> dry
> > beneath earth plasters, or else the building does not have sufficient
> eaves
> > and moisture keeps the wall wet.
> > I1ve got earthen plasters (with paper pulp) in my own bathroom where
> they
> get
> > really steamy at times, (from showering) which not only dry out really
> > quickly, but also suck moisture out of towels and wet floors keeping the
> room
> > really dry - there is no mould after three or more years of this, even
> though
> > we live in a wet and humid climate - virtually never less than 60%,
> often
> well
> > over 80% - 90%.
> >
> > cheers
> >
> > Graeme
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Graeme,
> >
> > Thanks for your submission and insight. The first I'd heard of
> 'fermenting'
> > straw (or paper) was from some friends from NZ, Sven and Sarah Johnston,
> > who hosted a workshop and a guest presenter was Tom Raven, the colorful
> > Frenchman, who uses a fermented mix, like bakers use a yeast starter for
> > baking breads. Tom swears by this fermenting and concurs with you on
> added
> > durability of the earth plasters. The Johnstons found they had some mold
> > issues, maybe as a result of this mix tho. Have you experience any
> issues
> > with molds?
>
>
>
>
> --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts ---
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>   text/html
> ---
> ----
> For instructions on joining, leaving, or otherwise using the GSBN list,
> send
> email to GSBN@...HELP in the SUBJECT line.
> ----
>
>
> Internal Virus Database is out-of-date.
> Checked by AVG Free Edition.
> Version: 7.5.488 / Virus Database: 269.14.1/1050 - Release Date:
> 2007/10/04
> 05:03 PM
>
>
> No virus found in this outgoing message.
> Checked by AVG Free Edition.
> Version: 7.5.488 / Virus Database: 269.14.8/1064 - Release Date:
> 2007/10/11
> 03:09 PM
>
>

>



- -- 
John Swearingen
Skillful Means, Inc.
Design and Construction
www.skillful-means.com


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----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 17 Oct 2007 09:25:54 -0500
From: Athena &amp; Bill Steen absteen@...
Subject: Re: GSBN:Taddelakt 

Here's a few thoughts on the subject.
By chance some years back I found a young kid in Tucson who had been  
to Morocco and apprenticed with a Tadelakt plasterer.  I don't know  
how much difference one finds between different Tadelakt methods in  
Morocco, but here's what he learned.  After all, the old saying goes,  
every maestro has his own book.
Anyhow, yes the lime there is impure and has enough particles in it  
that when we prepared a lime putty here the ratio came out to  
something like 1 part lime to 1 part 60 grit marble aggregate.  He  
thought that to be basically similar.  From there he used a small  
putty knife to daub the mixture on the wall in a consistent pattern.   
Once applied he switched to a piece of plastic cut out of the back of  
a quart oil container and used that to essentially smooth and burnish  
the plaster.  He only did one coat rather than two.  After that the  
black olive oil soap was applied (very thin) in successive layers  
with each coat being polished with a smooth stone.  Kind of like the  
Pueblo indians in this country who polish their pottery with Crisco.  
You can layer in tinted lime to get a layered effect.  I think the  
comment about doing an imitation vs the real thing probably falls  
into the category of the kind of comments that reference the "good  
old days" when things used to be superior in nature.  It seems to me  
that it depends more upon who does it and how.  After all, lime is  
lime, marble or calcium aggregate is what it is and black soap is  
what it is.  The soap is basically a gooey slimy material.  It is  
handled by Transmineral here in the States.  However, I happen to  
have a chemist/soap expert here at the moment and she says that it  
basically comes down to soaps that have a high sterine content and  
that there are others higher up on the chart.  The most common being  
Dr. Bronners.

If that Dutch guy Rene reads this he will undoubtedly have something  
to say about it in that he has a contact there with whom he has  
worked. Anyhow, punching Tadelakt into Google will most likely give  
all the results one needs in that Tadelakt masters seem to abound  
these days.

Btw, I have 3 people here at the moment in our Artistry workshop  
whose lime plasters have fallen from their earthen plaster substrates  
and are seeking other options.

B...
On Oct 17, 2007, at 2:06 AM, Andre de Bouter wrote:

> Hello Andy,
>
> We (my wife, the kids and I) are driving down to Marakech (Tadelakt
> heaven) this november where I'll finally be taking a tadelakt  
> workshop.
> The basic principle is using their local lime (CL in Europe =Calcic  
> Lime
> = non hyraulic) which is not completely pure nor completely 'cooked',
> just as the old limes Bill Steen mentioned.
> This allows for the lime to be used pure (with pigment) with only  
> minor
> cracking.
> A second thin layer is applied, which is hard troweled when leather
> hard. This closes the minor cracks.
> Then green soap is applied with a flat stone.
> A mason can do about 4m2 per day, which makes it quite costly compared
> to tiles etc.
> It is traditionally used in Morocco for covering the Hammam's which  
> were
> made of un stabilized earth.
> There is only one word that describes the end product : Sumptuous!
> There are recepies that copy this effect with other limes. In general
> marble dust (!) is used to avoid excessive cracking and to keep the  
> soft
> surface. Those who have experience tell me that nothing really is as
> beautiful as the real stuff. although I agree there is a  
> difference, the
> 'falsifications' are also effective and beautiful).
>
> Tadelakt is watertight (bathtubs and the like can be made with it) but
> does not breath. So it will not have the advantage of absorbing the
> moisture and releasing it later as earth plaster has. I intend to  
> use it
> in the shower and for the sink, but will not cover the rest of the
> earthen plaster in that room. I agree with Graeme that earth holds up
> very well by itself. We have our bath in our 'Master' ;-) bedroom.  
> Our 2
> kids also use it often (in Europe having 2 bathrooms is an exception).
> We never have even the slightest condensation on our windows nor on  
> the
> mirror.
>
> A beautiful (french) book on the subject is:
> Le tadelakt, un decor a la chaux by Solene Delahousse ISBN  
> 2-7072-0476-5
> Look at Amazon to see the cover (but order in your local bookstore ;-)
> <a  target="_blank" href="http://www.amazon.fr/tadelakt-d%C3%A9cor-%C3%A0-chaux/dp/2707204765";>http://www.amazon.fr/tadelakt-d%C3%A9cor-%C3%A0-chaux/dp/2707204765</a>
>
> Bill Steen showed us during a workhop near Santa Fe how he makes
> something visually similar with kaolin clay. He hard troweled a very
> thin layer of leather hard pure clay. This also gave a very very very
> soft/slick surface, but it is not intended to be watertight.
>
> Plaster on,
> Andre
>
> Just to make you all green with envy : this is where we will be for  
> the
> Taddelakt workshop :
> <a  target="_blank" href="http://www.riadzinoun.com/tadelakt-stage-anglais.html";>http://www.riadzinoun.com/tadelakt-stage-anglais.html</a>
> <a  target="_blank" href="http://www.riadzinoun.com/riad_visite1.html";>http://www.riadzinoun.com/riad_visite1.html</a>
>
>
> Andy Horn a ecrit :
>> Does anyone know about the Moroccan takalak plasters, which are  
>> apparently
>> used in bathrooms? I believe they are supposedly used in  
>> waterproofing of
>> baths and showers too?
>> Andy
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: GSBN [<a  target="_blank" href="mailto:GSBN@...";>mailto:GSBN@...] On Behalf Of  
>> Graeme North
>> Sent: 11 October 2007 09:32 PM
>> To: GSBN
>> Subject: Re: GSBN: Earth plasters
>>
>>
>>> Hi Mark  I1ve not found mould on earth plasters to be a problem   
>>> I have
>>>
>> seen
>>
>>> darker surface 3patches2 on fermented earthen material eg mud  
>>> bricks or
>>>
>> cob
>>
>>> where the  mix had sat for a while (weeks) before using and had  
>>> fermented
>>>
>> a
>>
>>> bit, but I do not think these darker patches that arise from this  
>>> are
>>>
>> mould.
>>
>>> Mould may occur if the walls are very slow to dry and/or are not  
>>> fully dry
>>> beneath earth plasters, or else the building does not have  
>>> sufficient
>>>
>> eaves
>>
>>> and moisture keeps the wall wet.
>>> I1ve got earthen plasters (with paper pulp) in my own bathroom  
>>> where they
>>>
>> get
>>
>>> really steamy at times, (from showering) which not only dry out  
>>> really
>>> quickly, but also suck moisture out of towels and wet floors  
>>> keeping the
>>>
>> room
>>
>>> really dry  there is no mould after three or more years of this,  
>>> even
>>>
>> though
>>
>>> we live in a wet and humid climate  virtually never less than  
>>> 60%, often
>>>
>> well
>>
>>> over 80% - 90%.
>>>
>>> cheers
>>>
>>> Graeme
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Graeme,
>>>
>>> Thanks for your submission and insight. The first I'd heard of
>>>
>> 'fermenting'
>>
>>> straw (or paper) was from some friends from NZ, Sven and Sarah  
>>> Johnston,
>>> who hosted a workshop and a guest presenter was Tom Raven, the  
>>> colorful
>>> Frenchman, who uses a fermented mix, like bakers use a yeast  
>>> starter for
>>> baking breads. Tom swears by this fermenting and concurs with you  
>>> on added
>>> durability of the earth plasters. The Johnstons found they had  
>>> some mold
>>> issues, maybe as a result of this mix tho. Have you experience  
>>> any issues
>>> with molds?
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts ---
>> multipart/alternative
>>   text/plain (text body -- kept)
>>   text/html
>> ---
>> ----
>> For instructions on joining, leaving, or otherwise using the GSBN  
>> list, send
>> email to GSBN@...HELP in the SUBJECT line.
>> ----
>>
>>
>> Internal Virus Database is out-of-date.
>> Checked by AVG Free Edition.
>> Version: 7.5.488 / Virus Database: 269.14.1/1050 - Release Date:  
>> 2007/10/04
>> 05:03 PM
>>
>>
>> No virus found in this outgoing message.
>> Checked by AVG Free Edition.
>> Version: 7.5.488 / Virus Database: 269.14.8/1064 - Release Date:  
>> 2007/10/11
>> 03:09 PM
>>
>>
>> ----
>> For instructions on joining, leaving, or otherwise using the GSBN  
>> list, send email to GSBN@...HELP in the  
>> SUBJECT line.
>> ----
>>
>>
>>
>>
> ----
> For instructions on joining, leaving, or otherwise using the GSBN  
> list, send email to GSBN@...HELP in the  
> SUBJECT line.  ----
>

Athena &amp; Bill Steen
The Canelo Project
HC1 Box 324
Canelo/Elgin, AZ 85611
absteen@...
www.caneloproject.com




----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 17 Oct 2007 10:05:20 -0500
From: jswearingen@...
Subject: Re: GSBN:Taddelakt

<However, I happen to have a chemist/soap expert here at the moment and she
says that it
basically comes down to soaps that have a high sterine content and
that there are others higher up on the chart.  The most common being
Dr. Bronners.>

Hallelujah !  Another use for Dr. Bronners!!!!

John "I Use it for Toothpaste"  Swearingen


On 10/17/07, Athena &amp; Bill Steen absteen@... wrote:
>
> Here's a few thoughts on the subject.
> By chance some years back I found a young kid in Tucson who had been
> to Morocco and apprenticed with a Tadelakt plasterer.  I don't know
> how much difference one finds between different Tadelakt methods in
> Morocco, but here's what he learned.  After all, the old saying goes,
> every maestro has his own book.
> Anyhow, yes the lime there is impure and has enough particles in it
> that when we prepared a lime putty here the ratio came out to
> something like 1 part lime to 1 part 60 grit marble aggregate.  He
> thought that to be basically similar.  From there he used a small
> putty knife to daub the mixture on the wall in a consistent pattern.
> Once applied he switched to a piece of plastic cut out of the back of
> a quart oil container and used that to essentially smooth and burnish
> the plaster.  He only did one coat rather than two.  After that the
> black olive oil soap was applied (very thin) in successive layers
> with each coat being polished with a smooth stone.  Kind of like the
> Pueblo indians in this country who polish their pottery with Crisco.
> You can layer in tinted lime to get a layered effect.  I think the
> comment about doing an imitation vs the real thing probably falls
> into the category of the kind of comments that reference the "good
> old days" when things used to be superior in nature.  It seems to me
> that it depends more upon who does it and how.  After all, lime is
> lime, marble or calcium aggregate is what it is and black soap is
> what it is.  The soap is basically a gooey slimy material.  It is
> handled by Transmineral here in the States.  However, I happen to
> have a chemist/soap expert here at the moment and she says that it
> basically comes down to soaps that have a high sterine content and
> that there are others higher up on the chart.  The most common being
> Dr. Bronners.
>
> If that Dutch guy Rene reads this he will undoubtedly have something
> to say about it in that he has a contact there with whom he has
> worked. Anyhow, punching Tadelakt into Google will most likely give
> all the results one needs in that Tadelakt masters seem to abound
> these days.
>
> Btw, I have 3 people here at the moment in our Artistry workshop
> whose lime plasters have fallen from their earthen plaster substrates
> and are seeking other options.
>
> B...
> On Oct 17, 2007, at 2:06 AM, Andre de Bouter wrote:
>
> > Hello Andy,
> >
> > We (my wife, the kids and I) are driving down to Marakech (Tadelakt
> > heaven) this november where I'll finally be taking a tadelakt
> > workshop.
> > The basic principle is using their local lime (CL in Europe =Calcic
> > Lime
> > = non hyraulic) which is not completely pure nor completely 'cooked',
> > just as the old limes Bill Steen mentioned.
> > This allows for the lime to be used pure (with pigment) with only
> > minor
> > cracking.
> > A second thin layer is applied, which is hard troweled when leather
> > hard. This closes the minor cracks.
> > Then green soap is applied with a flat stone.
> > A mason can do about 4m2 per day, which makes it quite costly compared
> > to tiles etc.
> > It is traditionally used in Morocco for covering the Hammam's which
> > were
> > made of un stabilized earth.
> > There is only one word that describes the end product : Sumptuous!
> > There are recepies that copy this effect with other limes. In general
> > marble dust (!) is used to avoid excessive cracking and to keep the
> > soft
> > surface. Those who have experience tell me that nothing really is as
> > beautiful as the real stuff. although I agree there is a
> > difference, the
> > 'falsifications' are also effective and beautiful).
> >
> > Tadelakt is watertight (bathtubs and the like can be made with it) but
> > does not breath. So it will not have the advantage of absorbing the
> > moisture and releasing it later as earth plaster has. I intend to
> > use it
> > in the shower and for the sink, but will not cover the rest of the
> > earthen plaster in that room. I agree with Graeme that earth holds up
> > very well by itself. We have our bath in our 'Master' ;-) bedroom.
> > Our 2
> > kids also use it often (in Europe having 2 bathrooms is an exception).
> > We never have even the slightest condensation on our windows nor on
> > the
> > mirror.
> >
> > A beautiful (french) book on the subject is:
> > Le tadelakt, un decor a la chaux by Solene Delahousse ISBN
> > 2-7072-0476-5
> > Look at Amazon to see the cover (but order in your local bookstore ;-)
> > <a  target="_blank" href="http://www.amazon.fr/tadelakt-d%C3%A9cor-%C3%A0-chaux/dp/2707204765";>http://www.amazon.fr/tadelakt-d%C3%A9cor-%C3%A0-chaux/dp/2707204765</a>
> >
> > Bill Steen showed us during a workhop near Santa Fe how he makes
> > something visually similar with kaolin clay. He hard troweled a very
> > thin layer of leather hard pure clay. This also gave a very very very
> > soft/slick surface, but it is not intended to be watertight.
> >
> > Plaster on,
> > Andre
> >
> > Just to make you all green with envy : this is where we will be for
> > the
> > Taddelakt workshop :
> > <a  target="_blank" href="http://www.riadzinoun.com/tadelakt-stage-anglais.html";>http://www.riadzinoun.com/tadelakt-stage-anglais.html</a>
> > <a  target="_blank" href="http://www.riadzinoun.com/riad_visite1.html";>http://www.riadzinoun.com/riad_visite1.html</a>
> >
> >
> > Andy Horn a ecrit :
> >> Does anyone know about the Moroccan takalak plasters, which are
> >> apparently
> >> used in bathrooms? I believe they are supposedly used in
> >> waterproofing of
> >> baths and showers too?
> >> Andy
> >>
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> From: GSBN [<a  target="_blank" href="mailto:GSBN@...";>mailto:GSBN@...] On Behalf Of
> >> Graeme North
> >> Sent: 11 October 2007 09:32 PM
> >> To: GSBN
> >> Subject: Re: GSBN: Earth plasters
> >>
> >>
> >>> Hi Mark  I1ve not found mould on earth plasters to be a problem
> >>> I have
> >>>
> >> seen
> >>
> >>> darker surface 3patches2 on fermented earthen material eg mud
> >>> bricks or
> >>>
> >> cob
> >>
> >>> where the  mix had sat for a while (weeks) before using and had
> >>> fermented
> >>>
> >> a
> >>
> >>> bit, but I do not think these darker patches that arise from this
> >>> are
> >>>
> >> mould.
> >>
> >>> Mould may occur if the walls are very slow to dry and/or are not
> >>> fully dry
> >>> beneath earth plasters, or else the building does not have
> >>> sufficient
> >>>
> >> eaves
> >>
> >>> and moisture keeps the wall wet.
> >>> I1ve got earthen plasters (with paper pulp) in my own bathroom
> >>> where they
> >>>
> >> get
> >>
> >>> really steamy at times, (from showering) which not only dry out
> >>> really
> >>> quickly, but also suck moisture out of towels and wet floors
> >>> keeping the
> >>>
> >> room
> >>
> >>> really dry  there is no mould after three or more years of this,
> >>> even
> >>>
> >> though
> >>
> >>> we live in a wet and humid climate  virtually never less than
> >>> 60%, often
> >>>
> >> well
> >>
> >>> over 80% - 90%.
> >>>
> >>> cheers
> >>>
> >>> Graeme
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Graeme,
> >>>
> >>> Thanks for your submission and insight. The first I'd heard of
> >>>
> >> 'fermenting'
> >>
> >>> straw (or paper) was from some friends from NZ, Sven and Sarah
> >>> Johnston,
> >>> who hosted a workshop and a guest presenter was Tom Raven, the
> >>> colorful
> >>> Frenchman, who uses a fermented mix, like bakers use a yeast
> >>> starter for
> >>> baking breads. Tom swears by this fermenting and concurs with you
> >>> on added
> >>> durability of the earth plasters. The Johnstons found they had
> >>> some mold
> >>> issues, maybe as a result of this mix tho. Have you experience
> >>> any issues
> >>> with molds?
> >>>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts ---
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> >>   text/html
> >> ---
> >> ----
> >> For instructions on joining, leaving, or otherwise using the GSBN
> >> list, send
> >> email to GSBN@...HELP in the SUBJECT line.
> >> ----
> >>
> >>
> >> Internal Virus Database is out-of-date.
> >> Checked by AVG Free Edition.
> >> Version: 7.5.488 / Virus Database: 269.14.1/1050 - Release Date:
> >> 2007/10/04
> >> 05:03 PM
> >>
> >>
> >> No virus found in this outgoing message.
> >> Checked by AVG Free Edition.
> >> Version: 7.5.488 / Virus Database: 269.14.8/1064 - Release Date:
> >> 2007/10/11
> >> 03:09 PM
> >>
> >>
> >> ----
> >> For instructions on joining, leaving, or otherwise using the GSBN
> >> list, send email to GSBN@...HELP in the
> >> SUBJECT line.
> >> ----
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> > ----
> > For instructions on joining, leaving, or otherwise using the GSBN
> > list, send email to GSBN@...HELP in the
> > SUBJECT line.  ----
> >
>
> Athena &amp; Bill Steen
> The Canelo Project
> HC1 Box 324
> Canelo/Elgin, AZ 85611
> absteen@...
> www.caneloproject.com
>
>

>



- -- 
John Swearingen
Skillful Means, Inc.
Design and Construction
www.skillful-means.com


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Date: 17 Oct 2007 10:33:46 -0500
From: Catherine Wanek cat@...
Subject: Re: GSBN:Re: Historic Nebraska Buildings and Railroad Workers

At 04:46 PM 10/16/2007, you wrote:
>Matts responds: I consider myself a serious student of the early history of
>bale building.  Although it may just be something that I've just somehow
>missed, I have never heard or read anything that would corroborate
>Tom's belief.
>Wonder if Joyce Coppinger, who shares my interest in the dawn of
>bale building,
>could weigh in on this one.

I did read somewhere that migrant farm workers who rode the trains
across the U.S. midwest from place to place, (ala the movie "Days of
Heaven") made use of straw bales for temporary shelter.  Joyce C. may
know more.
- -Catherine


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Date: 17 Oct 2007 13:14:34 -0500
From: Joyce Coppinger jc10508@...
Subject: Re: GSBN:Re: Historic Nebraska Buildings and Railroad Workers

OK, here's my two cents worth. I'll do some additional digging later at the
Historical Society and ask Roger Welsch (if I can get him to answer) and
share what I learn.

Many of the towns in Nebraska were settled and built by railroad workers who
decided to remain here on the Plains when offered homesteads, but I don't
know of any straw-bale buildings that were specifically identified as being
built by railroad workers. Fast shelter was more likely tents or railroad
cars.

Joyce

on 10.16.2007 5:46 PM, MattsMyhrman@...MattsMyhrman@...:

> Andre writes
>
>> Tom also says that it were the railroad workers in Nebraska that
>> started SB building. I don't remember reading this elsewhere. Though it
>> seems to make sense that railroad workers would create fast shelter it
>> does not seem logical to me that they would make a real house (because
>> they would probably move on as the railroad advances).
>>
>
> Matts responds: I consider myself a serious student of the early history of
> bale building.  Although it may just be something that I've just somehow
> missed, I have never heard or read anything that would corroborate Tom's
> belief.
> Wonder if Joyce Coppinger, who shares my interest in the dawn of bale
> building,
> could weigh in on this one.
>
>
> **************************************
> See what's
> new at 
>
>
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> ---
> ----
> For instructions on joining, leaving, or otherwise using the GSBN list, send
> email to GSBN@...HELP in the SUBJECT line.
> ----
>



----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 17 Oct 2007 13:48:26 -0500
From: "Lorenzo Robles" lorobles55@...
Subject: Re: GSBN:Earth plasters

Hello Andy;
I have built several ecological buildings in Morocco a couple of tears ago.
We used plenty of Taddelakt  to waterproof  baths and hammams (sweat bath).
It is a very ancient tradition and when well done, a perfect waterproofing.,
and a great decoration too (looks like polished marmor, but slightly
smoother, and less cold to the eye and the skin.).
The basis is lime, rough lime as they use to have in morocco Must absolutely
be air lime, not hydraulic. Hardens slowly, as carbon in the air
re-carbonates it.
You add some pigments (natural earth oxides are the best) and mix it with
water to a porridge constency.  allow a night rest.
The wall has to be fairly hard, and rough enough so the mix sticks to it
when pressed on it. Rough cement is good, or an undercoat of lime and gross
sand, dry since a week or two. Humidificate before starting the job.  It
needs a bit of training though.
. The mix has to be uniformely spread on the wall, in a thickness of min. 5
milimeters, and a max of 10, typically. Then the jobs starts really, as you
must press it gently but firmly (there lies the tricky side) to erase all
primary tracks, and make a more compact  coat.Have in mind the will be only
one coat,  so better training on odd pieces of walls, bricks etc before
doing the wall you want to look good.
If you can have someone who did it before, let him show you,  it 'll save
time and efforts.
In a way, the finishings is similar to fine earth plaster, as it requires
hand polishing with a smooth, flat stone. Instead of oil, moroccans use
black soap. a thick "honey like" soap, maid with olive oil and plants. then
the plaster  is left to dry for a week,  and  will harden more and more as
time passes.
Cheers
Lorenzo
- ----- Original Message -----
From: "Andy Horn" andy@...
To: "'GSBN'" GSBN@...
Sent: Wednesday, October 17, 2007 12:07 PM
Subject: GSBN:Earth plasters


Does anyone know about the Moroccan takalak plasters, which are apparently
used in bathrooms? I believe they are supposedly used in waterproofing of
baths and showers too?
Andy

- -----Original Message-----
From: GSBN [<a  target="_blank" href="mailto:GSBN@...";>mailto:GSBN@...] On Behalf Of Graeme North
Sent: 11 October 2007 09:32 PM
To: GSBN
Subject: Re: GSBN: Earth plasters

> Hi Mark #173# I#185#ve not found mould on earth plasters to be a problem
#173# I have
seen
> darker surface >=patches<= on fermented earthen material eg mud bricks or
cob
> where the  mix had sat for a while (weeks) before using and had fermented
a
> bit, but I do not think these darker patches that arise from this are
mould.
> Mould may occur if the walls are very slow to dry and/or are not fully dry
> beneath earth plasters, or else the building does not have sufficient
eaves
> and moisture keeps the wall wet.
> I#185#ve got earthen plasters (with paper pulp) in my own bathroom where
they
get
> really steamy at times, (from showering) which not only dry out really
> quickly, but also suck moisture out of towels and wet floors keeping the
room
> really dry #173# there is no mould after three or more years of this, even
though
> we live in a wet and humid climate #173# virtually never less than 60%,
often
well
> over 80% - 90%.
>
> cheers
>
> Graeme
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Graeme,
>
> Thanks for your submission and insight. The first I'd heard of
'fermenting'
> straw (or paper) was from some friends from NZ, Sven and Sarah Johnston,
> who hosted a workshop and a guest presenter was Tom Raven, the colorful
> Frenchman, who uses a fermented mix, like bakers use a yeast starter for
> baking breads. Tom swears by this fermenting and concurs with you on added
> durability of the earth plasters. The Johnstons found they had some mold
> issues, maybe as a result of this mix tho. Have you experience any issues
> with molds?




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- ----


Internal Virus Database is out-of-date.
Checked by AVG Free Edition.
Version: 7.5.488 / Virus Database: 269.14.1/1050 - Release Date: 2007/10/04
05:03 PM


No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG Free Edition.
Version: 7.5.488 / Virus Database: 269.14.8/1064 - Release Date: 2007/10/11
03:09 PM


- ----
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email to GSBN@...HELP in the SUBJECT line.
- ----




----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 17 Oct 2007 20:13:24 -0500
From: Graeme North ecodesign@...
Subject: Re: GSBN: Earth plasters

> 
> 
> Sven, if 40mm of plaster grows mould - firstly this is very thick plaster?
> and a lack of air movement plus silage will do it I1m sure
> Better drying would help for a start -
> 
> but also I totally agree with Andre when he says :
> 
> I'd say that if your plaster molds (after it initally dried out) you
> have a moisture problem in your building. Borax might deal with the
> mold, but would not deal with the source of the problem.
> 
> 
> * what's that white powder doin' here?



Graeme,
Graeme North Architects,
49 Matthew Road,
RD1, Warkworth,
New Zealand 0981
Ph/fax +64 (0)9  4259305

ecodesign@...
www.ecodesign.co.nz






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