[GSBN] URGENT! Drying moisture out of SB walls

Martin Hammer mfhammer at pacbell.net
Fri Apr 7 13:29:10 CDT 2017

Good point Derek, and after reading it again I agree with you that the
building paper likely covers only the framing. But it would be good to have
that confirmed. I first interpreted it as the paper covering the entire


PS - I'll add a partial email from a colleague who receives GSBN posts as a
reader only:

A temperature probe may be a relatively simple way to test whether bales are
rotting.  The microbes create a lot of heat, and if it's warmer in the wall
than inside or outside you've got some bad action.
That's how I realized we had a problem at Shorebird [a public SB building] -
. . ., reaching in the bale wall I could feel the heat.

Greg VanMechelen
VanMechelen Architects
732 Gilman Street
Berkeley, CA 94710
510.558.1075 510.558.1076 (fax)
greg at vanmechelenarchitects.com
www.vanmechelenarchitects.com <http://www.vanmechelenarchitects.com/>

From:  Gsbn <gsbn-bounces at sustainablesources.com> on behalf of Derek Roff
<derek at unm.edu>
Reply-To:  GSBN <GSBN at SustainableSources.com>
Date:  Friday, April 7, 2017 at 6:40 AM
To:  GSBN <GSBN at SustainableSources.com>
Subject:  Re: [GSBN] URGENT! Drying moisture out of SB walls

I'm wondering about the two possible interpretations of the sentence
describing the building paper.  "The wall was prepped to receive a lime
plaster--2-layer building paper stapled to all wood framing, shingled to shed
water, etc".   Does this mean that the paper covers only the wood, or does
the paper cover the bale surfaces as well, spanning the bales from wood
framing piece to wood framing piece?  I'm thinking it's the former, and that
the lime plaster is keyed into the straw of the bales.  But some other
comments have indicated the other alternative.  David Arkin, can you clarify
this detail for us?


Derek Roff
derek at unm.edu

> On Apr 7, 2017, at 6:54 AM, Chris Magwood <chris at endeavourcentre.org> wrote:
> It's not a cure-all by any means, but the silicate paints from Canadian-based
> Perma-Tint (used to be Eco-House) have worked extremely well for us:
> http://permatint.com/brick-staining-products/.
> However, it's important to note that even a well-painted (or rainscreened)
> bale wall is still susceptible to rain penetration at the top of the wall and
> around all window/door framing. In every moisture issue I've ever been asked
> to inspect, the bulk of the water entering the wall is coming from a junction
> where plaster simply bumps into wood or a window frame. It's astounding how
> much water can enter a 1/16 reveal-crack in a driving rainstorm...
> Chris
> On 2017-04-07 5:05 AM, Feile Butler wrote:
>> Hi All
>> Throwing my tuppence into the mix from the Emerald Isle - famously green due
>> to our impressive levels of rain.
>> While you may succeed in drying out the walls, the weather will keep on doing
>> what it does ... and with climate change, it will only get worse. We are
>> definitely noticing an increase in frequency/intensity of winter storms and
>> in wetter summers here (oh joy!). In our practice, we never specify lime
>> applied directly on to bales. It just cannot cope with the external moisture
>> loads inflicted on it. There are too many stories of rotting bale walls in
>> Ireland. 
>> While there has been some discussion that the moisture levels recorded in
>> these bales are not over concerning (yet), the fact that there is an
>> appalling smell is a pretty good indicator that all is not well (as long as
>> other sources have been ruled out).
>> Martin mentioned the building paper and that we don't know what it is. We
>> have heard reports of buildings where the construction moisture levels were
>> so high, that micro-porous breather membranes were overwhelmed by the amount
>> of water vapour trying to pass through as the building dried out and
>> basically self-sealed .... thereby creating a situation where moisture became
>> trapped in the building - not good. This has been reported a few times for
>> roof construction, not for walls. But there is no reason why it might not be
>> happening in walls - it is just much more obvious when you are sitting in an
>> attic space and drips are rolling off the membrane. So when we can, we
>> specify cellular membranes like Intello - which act by osmosis (and can
>> reverse direction of vapour flow depending on vapour pressure loadings
>> internally and externally), rather than the micro-porous membranes.
>> I would recommend adding a rain screen, as advised by John and others. In
>> Ireland, we design to keep the rain out and then we design another line of
>> defence for when the rain breaches the first detail ..... and we have to
>> design for horizontal and even upward driving rain.
>> If this building was in Ireland, I would recommend drying it out by whatever
>> means necessary. If it means pulling off the lime render, then so be it and I
>> would then wrap the bales externally with a cellular-based membrane (if the
>> clients can afford it). If they can dry out the bales without removing the
>> lime, then this should be adequate as the second line of defence and the
>> addition of the cellular membrane would not be necessary.
>> If they want the appearance of a solid render, rather than timber boards,
>> then I would fix 50mm vertical battens to the dried-out bales (covered with
>> lime or with an appropriate membrane) to form a drainage channel and
>> ventilation space. Then apply render carrier boards. Ensure that ventilation
>> is retained at the top and bottom of these boards. To save money, as there is
>> a ventilated cavity behind, these can be cement based (i.e.they don't need to
>> be breathable). Or the client can go full eco if they can afford it. Install
>> anti-vermin steel mesh at the bottom, but ensure that the cavity is still
>> ventilated and can drain out. Then apply lime render to the boards. Use a
>> good multi-direction mesh where the render boards connect back into the other
>> elevations.
>> If the clients are happy to have vertical timber boards, I would still
>> install 50mm vertical battens behind the horizontal battens (fixings for the
>> vertical boards). Having a clear flowing drainage cavity (uninhibited by
>> horizontal battens) is key to keeping the rest of the building dry.
>> As the overhang is reasonable, you should not need to extend the roof, as
>> this detail can take a whole heap of rain. Only the window reveals and cills
>> will increase. I recommend a min. 50mm overhang for cills to throw rain off
>> the wall below.
>> Cheers
>> Feile
>> Feile Butler
>> feile at mudandwood.com
>> www.mudandwood.com <http://www.mudandwood.com/>
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: Martin Hammer <mailto:mfhammer at pacbell.net>
>>> To: GSBN <mailto:GSBN at SustainableSources.com>
>>> Sent: Friday, April 07, 2017 4:58 AM
>>> Subject: Re: [GSBN] URGENT! Drying moisture out of SB walls
>>> Hi all,
>>> I agree with Derek that the straw close to the exterior could have a
>>> moisture content significantly higher than the readings provided. Especially
>>> near the bottom of the wall. I suggest the owners obtain a longer probe or
>>> drill holes in at least a few places in the exterior plaster in the bottom
>>> third of the wall to take readings for the first few inches of straw. Enough
>>> to get a clue about the highest moisture content of the straw in the walls.
>>> One fact about the wall assembly that hasn't been mentioned by the GSBN
>>> moisture sleuths is that it has two layers of building paper between the
>>> plaster and the bales. This could be a benefit (allowing less water that has
>>> penetrated the plaster to reach the straw) or a detriment (inhibiting the
>>> release of moisture in the straw to the outside air, depending on its vapor
>>> permeability). And we don't know exactly what the "building paper" is. I
>>> imagine that if water penetrated the plaster, and if the paper was installed
>>> properly, almost all of that water would be stopped by the two layers of
>>> paper, except maybe at fastener penetrations or tears in the paper. Gravity
>>> should then pull the water down and out, but only if there is sufficient
>>> means of safe escape at the bottom of the paper/plaster.
>>> A four foot overhang is substantial, but apparently not enough for this
>>> exposure/climate. David's idea of a 10' porch overhang certainly is one way
>>> to solve the problem. Or an exterior cladding suggest by Derek and John. Or
>>> regarding water repellent, colleagues in northern California have claimed
>>> success using siloxane over lime or cement-lime plaster on straw bale walls.
>>> It repels water but maintains good vapor permeability (I don't know a perm
>>> rating). I'm not sure if has been used successfully over clay paster.
>>> One other thought is regarding the use of heat on the interior to drive
>>> moisture to the exterior. Wouldn't that pull the moisture to the
>>> drier/warmer interior instead, or do I have my moisture mechanics backward.
>>> Cheers,
>>> Martin 
>>> Martin Hammer, Architect
>>> 1348 Hopkins St.
>>> Berkeley, CA  94702
>>> 510-525-0525 (office)
>>> 510-684-4488 (cell)
>>> From: Gsbn <gsbn-bounces at sustainablesources.com> on behalf of Derek Roff
>>> <derek at unm.edu>
>>> Reply-To: GSBN <GSBN at SustainableSources.com>
>>> Date: Thursday, April 6, 2017 at 6:18 PM
>>> To: GSBN <GSBN at SustainableSources.com>
>>> Subject: Re: [GSBN] URGENT! Drying moisture out of SB walls
>>> I'm concerned that we don't have enough data on current moisture levels near
>>> the exterior of the wall.  If rain has entered the straw through the
>>> exterior plaster, because of the extreme wind and rain, the straw might be
>>> several percentage points wetter in the first few inches under the exterior
>>> plaster skin.  As I understand the moisture testing done so far, the
>>> readings have been taken from the inside, and the probe probably never got
>>> closer than 6" or further from the outside plaster.  I'm sure that there is
>>> a desire to avoid adding visible holes/patches to the outside plaster, but
>>> if this hesitation leads to severe decay in the straw, that is obviously a
>>> poor trade-off.
>>> One thing we can be certain of is that extreme, nearly horizontal rain has
>>> been hitting these walls.  This year may have been worse than average, but
>>> it is poor strategy to suppose that the same or worse won't happen again in
>>> other years.  That suggests that a physical barrier is needed to protect
>>> these walls, along the lines of the ventilated rain screen that John Straube
>>> described.  The probability, and in my view, the certainty, that the
>>> exterior plaster needs to be covered, ought to decrease the worries about
>>> drilling a few holes in the exterior plaster, in order to take additional
>>> moisture readings.
>>> Derek
>>> Derek Roff
>>> derek at unm.edu
>>>> On Apr 6, 2017, at 6:21 PM, Paula Baker-Laporte FAIA <paula at econest.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>> We have used Keim liquid silicate coatings over earth plasters in an area
>>>> that was very susceptable to erosion from driving rain and had great
>>>> success with it. They make many different products and do a lot of
>>>> restorations with it in Europe and so I imagine they have a solution to use
>>>> over lime. Coatings are clear or pigmented. They can also do very exact
>>>> color matching if a sample is sent to them.
>>>> http://www.keimpaints.co.uk/about_us/comparison_of_keim_mineral_paints_and_
>>>> limewash/
>>>> On Thu, Apr 6, 2017 at 2:19 PM, John Straube <jfstraube at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> Hi all
>>>>> Interesting case because it looks like they did almost everything
>>>>> correctly. I am sorry to hear of their bad luck. The photo is quite
>>>>> telling, but I do wonder how the rain is getting in  at that angle (other
>>>>> than stupidly high levels of wind)
>>>>> I agree with you Dave that the numbers are not "run for the hills" but
>>>>> they are worrisome.
>>>>> Definitely worth checking for any of the obvious bulk water flaws and
>>>>> being more careful and complete in your MC measurements.
>>>>> I can be certain of one thing ... there is definitely an amount of rain that
>>>>> will over whelm the lime plaster, and cause wetting of the straw.  That
>>>>> amount depends on the drying potential of the climate and the lime plaster
>>>>> thickness and properties.  Nothing magic about lime, it is just better
>>>>> than cement, and much better than unite.
>>>>> It is expensive and invasive to  dry the wall by drilling holes and
>>>>> blowing dry air.  The hard part is the machine with dry air (desiccant
>>>>> driers are available from flood restoration companies).  One could simply
>>>>> blow heater air into holes... easier, still annoying.
>>>>> I would consider hanging a dark coloured (to collect solar heat) tarp or
>>>>> geotextile from the overhang edge/gutter to the grade to act as a highly
>>>>> ventilated (critical), rain screen.  This will stop further wetting and
>>>>> along drying.
>>>>> Also, adding heat to the inside will be helpful: increases the interior
>>>>> temperature where wetness is evident by even 5 degrees will help, although
>>>>> a steady and spatially uniform 10 or more will really make a difference in
>>>>> a matter of weeks.  I know people who have used arrays of heat lamps, plug
>>>>> in electric heaters with the door closed, and stoked up wood stoves to
>>>>> drive moisture out of walls.
>>>>> If the MC can get below 20% or so, then I think you have a lot of time to
>>>>> design an upgrade... almost all coatings have limits and are not as good as
>>>>> a real over clad.  Xypex is a pore blocker (hence reduces vapor permeance)
>>>>> that reacts with alkalinity to form calcium silicates.  Could work well
>>>>> with fresh lime, but probably wont work well with the exterior carbonated
>>>>> surface of the lime.  I would be quite skeptical of most coatings...
>>>>> products like Silanes certainly work and can make a pretty big difference,
>>>>> we just dont know if they make enough of a difference.
>>>>> If acceptable, it is pretty cheap and simple to install horizontal 1x4's
>>>>> with 45 degree sawn top edges over the lime plaster at, say 36" on centre
>>>>> or so, then add vertical boards with generous joints.  Or add vertical 1x4
>>>>> and clapboard siding (much more effective at rain shedding).  This will
>>>>> reduce the wetting by a factor of 10 or more, and only slow drying by a
>>>>> bit (if well ventilated) so a pretty massive improvement and certain to
>>>>> solve driving rain problems (if that is what this is).
>>>>> Planting a hedge and some trees a dozen yards upwind would also be a good
>>>>> idea.
>>>>> More good pictures like that one sent would possibly help provide more
>>>>> ideas.
>>>>> John
>>>>>> > On Apr 5, 2017, at 7:42 PM, David Arkin, AIA <david at arkintilt.com>
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> > Hello Global Balers:
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> >  A CASBA member poses the questions outlined in the situation below.
>>>>>> I've attached my responses below the query and photo, and invite any of
>>>>>> you to weigh in with further recommendations, follow-up questions or
>>>>>> anecdotes that may be useful.
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> > Best,
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> > David Arkin, AIA, Director
>>>>>> > California Straw Building Association
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> > ps: Joins us for CASBA's 2017 Spring Conference, May 5-7 in the San
>>>>>> Francisco Bay Area, featuring architect Craig White of the U.K.:
>>>>>> "Towards a Photosynthetic Architecture - Renewable Buildings for the
>>>>>> Circular Carbon Economy".   Registration is open:
>>>>>> http://www.strawbuilding.org/event-2497515
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> > *  *  *  *  *
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> > I'm  hoping you can address some of my questions or direct me to anyone
>>>>>> with experience dealing with this problem, or anyone who has any insights
>>>>>> into causes and solutions.
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> > I was contacted this morning by a client just south of Portland who has
>>>>>> measured high levels of moisture in their straw bale walls, and is asking
>>>>>> for advice on how to deal with the problem.
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> > The core questions I have are these:
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> > 1.       Assuming there isn't a bulk water leak from the roof,
>>>>>> downspout, or window, can wind-driven rain account for high levels of
>>>>>> moisture in a straw bale wall assembly?  In other words, what does it
>>>>>> take for a properly installed lime plaster to be overwhelmed by
>>>>>> wind-driven rain?
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> > 2.       What are the options for drying the wall out?   Waiting for
>>>>>> dry weather (summer!) may not  be an option as wet straw bales may not
>>>>>> survive that long.
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> > 3.       Once the wall is dried out, assuming there isn't significant
>>>>>> permanent damage to the bales, what surface treatments are available that
>>>>>> would prevent liquid moisture from soaking into the walls, yet keep them
>>>>>> vapor permeable.   I can imagine several landscaping and rain screen
>>>>>> (siding) solutions, but am not familiar with surface treatments.
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> > Background Information.
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> > Details about the wall assembly.   The SB walls are on a raised floor.
>>>>>> The space between the sill plates was filled with rock wool insulation
>>>>>> and capped with 1Ž2" plywood to handle the bale weight.  The wall
>>>>>> assembly has 2-string rice straw bales laid flat, and is part of the
>>>>>> building's shear wall system, using 17 gauge lath and lime plaster
>>>>>> (exterior and interior).   Instead of applying a finish coat of lime
>>>>>> plaster the client chose to apply a lime based paint from BioShield.    I
>>>>>> didn't plaster the structure or apply the lime paint, but believe it was
>>>>>> done by capable professionals in accordance with best practices.  The
>>>>>> bales were stack in April-May of 2016.   Bale wall moisture readings just
>>>>>> prior to plastering averaged 14.1%.   The wall was prepped to receive a
>>>>>> lime plaster--2-layer building paper stapled to all wood framing, shingled
>>>>>> to shed water, etc.  The windows have sills, the 4' roof overhangs are
>>>>>> guttered and the downspout installed properly.   The walls were plastered
>>>>>> during late spring and early summer.   Three coats of exterior lime paint
>>>>>> were applied in late summer-early fall.    When I visited in November, I
>>>>>> saw vertical cracks at the corners only (where I always see them,
>>>>>> regardless of how much corner-aid or exp. metal lath is underneath!).
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> > Building site.  The house is located in an open field and has no
>>>>>> barriers to wind driven rain.    The general contractor, who happens to
>>>>>> live next-door, told me the field is like a wind tunnel.  He reported
>>>>>> that since it began raining in the fall of 2016 he hasn't seen the walls
>>>>>> look dry more than a dozen times.
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> > The problem first came to my attention about a month ago when the
>>>>>> client told me they smelled something awful in one of their rooms--the one
>>>>>> with the most weather exposure (S. W. corner of building, labeled
>>>>>> "office" on the plans).   I haven't visited the site, but advised them to
>>>>>> first investigate and rule out all the other likely possible causes for
>>>>>> an odor (e.g. decomposing straw piled near the house, something else
>>>>>> rotting in the crawl space, etc.), and if the odor persisted, to gather
>>>>>> quantifiable information, including using a moisture meter probed into
>>>>>> the wall near outlets, which they have now done, (see below).
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> > <image001.png>
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> > <image002.png>
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> > The office is in the S. W. corner of the structure.  I'm not familiar
>>>>>> with the probe they used, but it's likely that the shaft is about 18"
>>>>>> long, and if used as described to me, "poked in a 45 degree angle from
>>>>>> the interior of the wall near the outlets", probably penetrated about 5"
>>>>>> into the wall when it reads 8", and about 12" into the wall where the
>>>>>> chart says "full in."  From all the points they gathered data, moisture
>>>>>> readings were higher towards the exterior of the wall.
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> > My understanding is that lime plasters will absorb and then release
>>>>>> liquid moisture from wind driven rain, and are quite able to handle
>>>>>> regular, frequent wettings without compromising the straw beneath.   If
>>>>>> bulk water isn't entering the wall through a breach in the flashing or
>>>>>> another leak of some kind, is it possible that an unusually wet winter (I
>>>>>> believe the Willamette Valley is experiencing a well-above average
>>>>>> rainfall year like much of the west coast) could create the moisture
>>>>>> levels seen below?   Is it possible that the  water is soaking in, and
>>>>>> just keeps soaking in, unable to dry out because of the constant rains?
>>>>>> > <wind driven rain on lime plastered SB wall, S exposure..jpg>
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> > *  *  *  *  *
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> > [Arkin comments in reply]
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> > The moisture readings aren't as high as I would've guessed based on
>>>>>> your description ... that's perhaps good news.  We had a wall at the Real
>>>>>> Goods Solar Living Center that was an exterior site wall with very little
>>>>>> overhang, and it would get pounded by the rain.  We had a moisture
>>>>>> reading over 50%!  However, in Hopland's sunny hot climate it dried out
>>>>>> between rains and now with a new broad overhang it is doing fine, 20+
>>>>>> years later.  Similarly a small outbuilding on that same site was flooded
>>>>>> to the middle of the second level of bales.  It was earth plastered and
>>>>>> we advised to simply let it be and see what happens.  The building has no
>>>>>> windows or doors (it's a 'welcome pavilion') and once again it dried out
>>>>>> promptly and has been fine.
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> > At the same time, I'm recalling an olive oil facility that was on top
>>>>>> of a hill in San Luis Obispo County, that had wind-driven rain penetrate
>>>>>> cracks in the Gunite finish on their bale walls, to the point of black
>>>>>> goo oozing out the base.  That's when you know you have real trouble.
>>>>>> They drilled holes and drove air into the bottom of the walls, and also
>>>>>> put a layer of breathable waterproofing on the exterior of the walls.
>>>>>> Similar to your case here, it was the windward side that had the worst
>>>>>> problems, but rain swirling around the building caused some issues on the
>>>>>> leeward side too.
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> > Here are my opinions on your questions, but let me be the first to
>>>>>> admit there are others who could answer these better than me:
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> > 1.  The photo sure makes it look like wind driven rain, and at quite an
>>>>>> angle!  Another 10' of overhang (aka a porch) along that facade seems in
>>>>>> order. Exactly how much moisture it takes to overwhelm a lime plaster
>>>>>> wall is difficult to say.  I'm recalling studies done by the University
>>>>>> of Bath that placed plastered wall samples in very exposed marine
>>>>>> climates to determine this.  You might search for this, perhaps starting
>>>>>> with EBNet's BuildWell Library.  Bruce King may be able to connect you
>>>>>> with Pete Walker, or you could try to reach him directly.
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> > 2.  Again, the numbers aren't so high that invasive measures need to be
>>>>>> taken.  I'd suggest putting some more powerful heaters on the interior,
>>>>>> and aim to drive the moisture out toward the exterior.  At the same time
>>>>>> they should deploy tarps or some other means of keeping wind driven rain
>>>>>> off the walls going forward, but let the sun and warmth at them
>>>>>> otherwise.
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> > 3.  Again, my first suggestion is a longer porch roof along that whole
>>>>>> facade, perhaps with some landscaping or something to break up the
>>>>>> laminar wind.  I suppose a deployable system of a rain screen of some
>>>>>> sort could also be used.  Allowing the walls to see sun this spring and
>>>>>> summer will be good though.  Xypex is a product that folks have applied
>>>>>> to walls, but I'm more familiar with its application on cement stucco
>>>>>> than lime, so research that a bit first.  David Easton suggests Glaze 'n'
>>>>>> Seal on his earth walls.  I believe both have that waterproofing effect
>>>>>> while still remaining breathable.
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> > As you know, both the plaster and the straw have a significant capacity
>>>>>> to store and release moisture, and it seems they are doing exactly that.
>>>>>> I can't say for certain, but this being their first season they may not
>>>>>> be damaged to the point of needing to be replaced, but the smell detected
>>>>>> is concerning.  Getting them to dry and then keeping them dry going
>>>>>> forward is key, and if necessary some replacement may be needed, but I'd
>>>>>> advise trying to avoid that first.
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> > *  *  *  *  *
>>>>>> > Arkin Tilt Architects
>>>>>> > Ecological Planning & Design
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> > Please Support (or Join?!) my 2017 Climate Ride (bicycling 300 miles
>>>>>> from SF to SLO, June 9-13, with a fundraising goal of $5,000 to support
>>>>>> Straw-Bale outreach)
>>>>>> > 
>>>>>> http://support.climateride.org/index.cfm?fuseaction=donorDrive.participan
>>>>>> t&participantID=4497
>>>>>> > Thank you!
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> > David Arkin, AIA, Architect
>>>>>> > LEED Accredited Professional
>>>>>> > CA #C22459/NV #5030
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> > 1101 8th St. #180, Berkeley, CA  94710
>>>>>> > 510/528-9830 ext. 2# <tel:510%2F528-9830%20ext.%202%23>
>>>>>> > www.arkintilt.com <http://www.arkintilt.com/>
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> > "There is no way to peace. Peace is the way."
>>>>>> > -- A. J. Muste
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> > _______________________________________________
>>>>>> > Gsbn mailing list
>>>>>> > Gsbn at sustainablesources.com
>>>>>> > http://sustainablesources.com/mailman/listinfo.cgi/gsbn
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> Gsbn mailing list
>>>>> Gsbn at sustainablesources.com
>>>>> http://sustainablesources.com/mailman/listinfo.cgi/gsbn
>>>> -- 
>>>> Paula Baker-Laporte FAIA,BBEC
>>>> Econest Architecture Inc.
>>>> www.EcoNest.com <http://www.econest.com/>
>>>> paula at econest.com
>>>> Phone: 541.488.9508
>>>> _______________________________________________
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> -- 
> Chris Magwood
> Director, Endeavour Centre
> www.endeavourcentre.org <http://www.endeavourcentre.org/>
> _______________________________________________
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